The L1® Approach Revisited

Hi Folks,

Some of us have been here awhile and some of us are relatively new. In the early days there were some ideas, principles if you like, that seemed to define the L1® Approach.

Here are some of the principles.
  • Every performer has his/her own L1®.

  • The audience can hear the individual performers.

  • The volume and the mix are in the control of the performers.

  • The performers share the same sound field as the audience.
    This was accomplished because there was only a single amplified signal for each sound source. That is: Each sound source was heard through only one L1®. The L1® replaced backline amplifier, monitor speakers for the individual performers, and served to provide the sound for the whole audience as well.

  • Lower stage volume because with the Model I and Model II, the drop off of sound over distance was less than conventional point-sources, so you didn't need to be as loud up front to be heard at the back.


Here is the original L1® Benefits Statement.



There may be more points to the original L1® Approach and if anyone out the remembers something please post here.

Over the past six years
  • Some performers adopted the L1® and adapted to the L1® Approach. The main feature of this seemed to be that each performer would have his/her own L1® and the rest would fall into place. After the introduction of the Model II and T1®, another variation was for each performer to have his/her own T1® and it was possible to share a Model I or Model II Power Stand.

  • Other performers have adopted the L1® and plugged it into their way of doing things. So this could look like one or two L1®s replacing the main front of house system and other things remained unchanged.

  • There have been all kinds of variations in the way performers used the L1®s. The DJs had many needs that were different from the musicians (please: nobody take no offence here) and so the ways they found to use the L1® were innovative and different from the original L1® Approach.

  • Other forms of performance (bluegrass, choirs, theatre, worship services) needed different thinking to use the L1®s effectively.

  • Over the years we have seen many innovative ways of using the L1® that go beyond or in some cases apparently contrary to the L1® Approach.

  • The L1® Compact was introduced earlier this year and it is quite different from the other L1® products both in the portability, affordability, and the way it projects sound into a space.

  • There have been some interesting discussions lately where we have pondered the direction of the L1® Approach (although they were not worded exactly that way). Examples:
    Momma get a hammer...
    Stereo vs. Mono & Breaking the Rules & ?s



Does this mean that the original vision for the L1® needs to be re-examined?

What do you think?
Original Post
The beauty of the L1® is that it sounds better than most other speakers no matter how you use it. That said, the real benefit to me is somewhat selfish: I can have control of my own sound in every group I'm in - big or small, & short of someone standing between me & my system no one can interfere with me hearing myself & sounding like I want to sound. This is huge compared to what it used to be like in bands. Sure, I had my own amp for my guitar sound, but my vocal was always in the mix at the hands of whoever was tweaking the knobs that night. That made for some nightmare nights when I had to scream to hear myself, & I never knew where I was in the mix out front. The L1® changed all that for me.

What I hoped for in the long run in the music world was that everyone would just buy an L1® for his/her own vocal & instrument instead of an instrument amp for each instrumentalist & a PA for the whole group plus sound man & racks of processing. That is such a pain & such an expense once the group gets big enough & is playing big enough gigs. What seems to be happening is that everyone sees the L1® as a powered PA speaker that they can hook a mixer up to with the whole band going through it just like any other powered PA speaker. This doesn't solve any of the problems we were trying to solve with this new approach, it just moves it onto a speaker that has wide enough dispersion to cause some real interference problems in the room. That is a step backward in my opinion.

Just treat the L1® as a system that you save up for until you can afford it, & then get the sound you want for yourself - just like you do from a guitar, keyboard, or bass amp. When you get a band together look for players & singers who also have their own sound & are looking to get together in a situation where each contributes his/her own sound. You won't have to have an equipment van with racks of gear & huge subs & mains to set up. You won't have the pain & mind drain of all that stuff either. Then you can get down to making some music & having some fun.
Today there are 5800+ members of this forum. I remember when we had a mini celebration for member #802 or was it 901, anyway, the number of members represents only a fraction of the number of actual L1 owners. I have to believe there are far more happy users out there plying their trade with an L1, than there are members here talking about how we use the systems.

Most of us came here looking for information. In the early days there was one primary message, and it dealt with the properties of the cylindrical radiator, and how to best take advantage of them.

Today new and potential new users come for the same reason, but there are many more happy voices to share their experience of how the L1 works for them.

It's been interesting to watch, (and participate) as Bose personel moved from the forefront, for the most part only appearing when prompted or when there was an obvious need for clarification, and allowed the early adopters of this technology to speak freely about our experience as it compares to the ideal approach.

In recent months, especially since the introduction of the Compact, we have welcomed many new folks with a great interest in the portability and clarity of the L1s if not the one per person, setup behind the performer, concept.

We have also seen the introduction of the "Ask Bose" forum so anyone wanting an official response has a direct line.

As a solo performer I have found the original idea to suit me perfectly. Because I have attended some of the Bose conferences and witnessed the very professional setup and use by seasoned musicians in a band format, I believe totally in the concept of a "personalized amplification system". It just works.

I suspect the adoption by DJs and the growth of that market has been a welcome surprise to the Folks-at-Bose, and is a market segment that will continue to grow and get development interest from the R&D department as well.

My comments will primarily be about live performance. As good as the L1 is for recorded music, it offers much more to the live musician.

So at this point in time the users and uses are many and varied. There has been a relaxation of "selling the concept" as long as the product continues to sell.

My interest here has been to share my positive experience in using the L1 "as designed", but artistic license allows one to break the rules, and if it works for them it is OK. Right?

Does the original vision for the L1 need to be re-examined?

I am anxious to hear from Bose on this one.

O..
It's so fun to revisit the benefits statement we put on every carton when we launched back in October of 2003. It's like renewing your vows.

One on hand, I'm just incredibly humbled by the reaction we've had. Without being able to share exact sales figures, the results are just stunning. And the new L1 Compact is really a game changer in terms of the number of people that are starting to look at the whole L1 family of products.

If there is one thing that I'd like to do better at it's getting bands to perform using multiple L1 systems. The difference in the amount of musical information available to both players and audience members is profound.

There are a lot of bands out there playing with L1 systems, don't get me wrong. It's the hardest thing of all to market and sell, and there are a lot of reasons why it's hard for bands.

"One per player (some can share), placed behind the musicians." That's what it's all about.

Ken
quote:
Originally posted by Ken-at-Bose:

"One per player (some can share), placed behind the musicians." That's what it's all about.

Ken


Thanks Ken. So the original concept is not abandoned by Bose.

We have (as a community) accepted that many will find unconventional ways to use their L1, and be very happy with the result.

What "I think" we have not done so well is keep alive the idea that there are tangible benefits to be had when used "One per player, placed behind the musicians."

I think there are many good reasons why the L1s work as a conventional system, and it can be argued that they work better, because of the same principles that make them excel as a "personalized amplification system"

Others might have different opinions about what they would like to see in this thread, but I would like to see a lot of participation in a discussion about why we do, or why we don't use the L1s as designed.

I know there are various places where this subject has come up in the past, but as we move along we need to better understand what we as musicians are up against in makng the best use of our L1s and in turn offer better info to those who might come here looking for a PA and not realize the total concept of the cylindrical radiator, that it is more "personal" than a PA, and how it can make us better at what we do, and allow our audience to hear us in a more intimate way.

One of the characteristics of the L1 I like best is the localization. If the L1 is behind me my audience can easily locate me. The sound is all mine, coming from me, with my person being the focal point. With the L1 my audience can be beside me or anyplace in that magic 180 degrees and each one share the same experience.

I played a benefit this past Friday night. Part of the evening was a live auction. I provided a Compact for the auctioneer. The area that needed to be covered was about 90 X 90 feet. When the auction started I walked around to make sure everybody could hear. There was no mistaking where the auctioneer was, and he was by far the easiest to understand auctioneer I have ever heard.

O..
MY bands have simply never sounded better or been more enjoyable than when using one Bose L1 per person, and in SO many different environments - inside, outside, small rooms, large ballrooms, horrible gymnasiums and airplane hangars, and volume levels - under people talking at cocktail hour and dinner to rocking them on the dance floor.

And... with acoustic guitars, with and without pre-amps, electric guitars with miced amps, floorboard simulators, bass with amps, direct boxes, and powered subs, keyboards, guitar synth, acoustic and electronic drums, and all kinds of vocal mics.

Bose-only, and lined out into huge event PA's. People providing event PA's saying "you don't need us - those things sound better than our stuff".

A few weeks ago we HAD to play on a triple system of old, and of course it was misery by comparison. But it SURE makes you appreciate the RIGHT way!

One of the bands several times a year plays for marathon running events, where music and bands have long been an under-funded and sometimes UN-funded afterthought. Recently, the norm has become for US to provide the "Event PA" for FIVE TIMES the previous pitiful band amount. We bring an extra mic, maybe one additional L1.

I know, I'm preaching to the choir, but this is one persepctive, down here in Texas.

Original question? I think the original objective and recommended usage is still completely on target - the meat and potatoes. The many other found and clever uses are gravy.

Yet another low serial number, Mike
This is what we said when the system was revealed for the first time to the press on October 15, 2003.

It was after about 30 minutes explaining the history of amplification and the problems experienced by musicians and audiences.

quote:

KEN: A source shaped like this projects wedge-shaped sound waves that expand out and to the sides, but hardly up and down at all.

This wedge-shaped radiation pattern changes many things.

First and foremost, because it confines its energy in a wedge-shaped pattern, the level drops off much more slowly than a traditional loudspeaker.

For example, if the level three feet in front of a conventional speaker is set to the same level as this new source, then by 30 feet, the conventional source already has 10 times less sound intensity than the new source.

Take a look at this top view of a stage: such a source spreads the sound almost at 180 degrees.
It creates a large uniform sound field.

Such a source can be placed behind any individual musician, and they hear the same sound as their audience.
If every musician in the ensemble has one, they hear each other as in an acoustical performance.

(pause)

Think back to the problems we learned about in the triple-system approach.

This new system represents a fraction of the equipment.

No monitors, no PA, no backline speakers, no mixing consoles.

Everyone – musicians and members of the audience – instantly can connect what they hear with what they see because now the sound comes from each musician’s position.

Everyone can pick out and hear the individual voices and instruments because now they come from different directions.

Reverberation is greatly reduced because these sources don’t radiate sound to the upper walls and ceiling.

Because of the exceptionally wide and even sound pattern of the new source, the problems of acute directionality of backline speakers are gone.

And the musicians play with the knowledge that the same sound they hear on stage is what is projected into the audience because the musicians, and no one else, are in complete control of the music, as they were throughout history until just 30 years ago .

Live band starts quietly: “Redman”

KEN: (close to the mic) This is what we have been working on for the past ten years.
And this what you are listening to right now.

The Linemen.

Traditional bands can't imagine, soundmen don't want to consider... this very different approach. You have to hear it in person to believe it works, and to begin to understand it. Seeing and hearing one system in a loud music store simply does not get the information and experience across.

DJ's use stereo recorded music, thus two systems are used as a "traditional" PA, in stereo - that pretty much makes sense.

The salespeople in Guitar Centers don't know how to sell them or how to convince a 4 or 5 piece band to buy 4 or 5 L1's. They do have people that know how to sell mixers, power amps, speakers and subs.

Tens of thousands of guitar players (more?) attend guitar show events every year. Taylor sometimes has an L1 in their booth. One.

But if I knew more (actually anything!) about sales and marketing, I'd be a much more successful business person. Wish I was...
For anyone interested in knowing more about the L1® approach, here is some terrific background reading.

Cocktail Party Effect ← why it's great to have an L1® behind every performer.

Applying the Benefits of Unamplified Acoustic Music to Performances with Amplification ← a great insight into the thinking behind the L1®

L1® Research Project History ← from concept to reality — irresistible, compelling reading.
I think the original principles (stated above) remain sound (sorry no pun intended). Period. I hope future design changes do not move away from this design center. Sometimes companies make design changes or marketing messages that make sacrifices that are counter to their principals. Congrats to BOSE for not doing this and I hope they never do. Dan
One per player is fine and dandy; a great idea, and I'm sure Bose shareholders, employees, and retail outlets like that idea too. But musicians are awkward people. Many of them don't understand sound systems as well as one might think they should. Also, just as players in a band will use different amps and instruments, then just because I'VE got an L1, it doesn't mean to say that they will all 'copy' me and get one too. Firstly, they'd probably hate to be seen to be copying, and secondly, the L1 system is not cheap, especially if you've already invested a lifetime of playing to get your favourite rig. It would also mean a lot of players changing to modeling rigs and discarding their valve amps (I have). They just ain't gonna do that - not yet anyway.

I also think that the marketing and ads for L1s seems to want to 'catch all' so to speak. Like, the L1 seems to work best where you have amplified acoustic players on the stage. Four rock players with L1s behind them (and there's a Bose ad/brochure with a pic of band with a Les Paul and drums) will doubtless not get the required volume from just the L1s in anything approaching a reasonable hall size (and feedback will become a problem if pushed).

I love my L1 system. It's the best sounding system for reproducing vocals and instruments that I have heard. But getting all band members to have one each is a pipe dream. And also, the system is getting towards the edge of its capabilities with anything approaching a rock band that needs to be quite loud; you need a conventional PA too - back to square one.

I look forward to future developments; particularly expansion of the T1 design and concept.
HI, SteverUK !
quote:
Originally posted by SteverUK:
....Four rock players with L1s behind them (and there's a Bose ad/brochure with a pic of band with a Les Paul and drums) will doubtless not get the required volume from just the L1s in anything approaching a reasonable hall size (and feedback will become a problem if pushed)...
I'd just like to point out that there are MORE then a few rock bands which seem to run counter to your conjecture...

At my last count, there were more than 15 rock bands listed in the L1 Bands.

Sure, an all-L1 Rock band is not going to fill a football stadium with BIG sound -- most rock bands don't travel with that much equipment of ANY type, either. But L1 bands can be LOUD -- if they choose to be.
If the L1s did nothing more than replace a band's backline amps and monitors (providing feeds to a FOH system for large venues), it would still make a lot of sense to use them.

On stage, you'd have the same 'monitor' mix for both large (with FOH) and small venues (without FOH). People right in front of the stage in a big venue would hear a good mix without the need for FOH fill speakers. Everyone would have less hearing damage. Musicians would maintain local control of the mix.

Let me elaborate a bit on that "right in front of the stage" point. If you're in the front row of a big hall, a normal FOH system has the sound coming from far right/left, or overhead. Very disconcerting for the listener. For a trad rock band, you hear the blare of some of the backline amps, totally out of proportion to the rest of the mix. Unless they've provided front fill speakers for the audience, the expensive front-row seats are some of the worst in the house acoustically. If everyone's using an L1, the whole problem is eliminated.

--Rick
Rick,

I agree with all you say - in theory...

But in practise, bands playing large venues want their Marshall stacks behind them! An L1 system is not macho enough. That's not a problem to me; I've sold my stack to go L1, but like I said earlier, musicians are awkward and often very traditional when it comes to gear.

I doubt if many touring rock bands would use L1s just so that the front row can hear properly! They want their stacks and monitors to pose over!

Sales of the L1 system have been stated by Bose as being amazing. Having said that, the best technical solution in the world is not always what some sectors of the market actually WANT.

I think the L1 is best for solo musicians and acoustic bands (with some electric stuff) in small and medium size halls. People expect a rock band to be LOUD, they just do! I know that's out of kilter with modern health and safety but try telling that to bands whose livelehood depends on pinning people to the back wall with monstrous riffs. And that can include local rock bands in medium sized halls; the L1 system just won't work for them, visually or sonically. An Eagles or blues style rock band, perhaps so, but it just depends on what we're calling a medium sized hall.
quote:
Originally posted by SteverUK:

I agree with all you say - in theory...




True, an L1 system cannot do as much damage as a Marshall stack. Wink

Interesting that the first musicians to adopt Marshalls were looking for the latest, loudest amps that gave them the tone they were looking for. Nowadays, many players use Marshall stacks just because their heroes of yore used them. But they're so... 20th Century!
quote:
Originally posted by SteverUK:
I doubt if many touring rock bands would use
L1s just so that the front row can hear properly! They want their stacks and monitors to pose over!


This statement just now struck me. I'm afraid it's true, which means that many rock bands are focused on themselves, not on their audiences or the music itself. I sigh in resignation....
I'm new to this forum, but I am a 30 + year guitar and bass player. Here is our band's twist on the Compact.

Our lead singer showed up to our last band practice last week and surprised us with a newly purchased Compact. The last time we had spoken, he had told us he was looking at a Samson system. The Bose was a surprise.

He showed us the Compact and explained the concept behind it, which was foreign to me and to our lead guitarist. I listened with interest. As a band, we've been trying for a while to set up for practices with less clutter. I studied the whole thing and proposed that we use a mixer to run a mixed signal into channel 2 and go amp-less. Understand that we are not an acoustic band. We are playing classic and mainstream rock.

We ran the lead vocal on channel 1 on the Compact, as the design concept calls for. Channel 2 was fed the signal from my humble and reliable Yamaha MG102C mixer, which handled the rest of our 4 piece band. Our lead guitar hooked up his Fernandes Ravelle to a Vox Sound Lab and then went direct to the Yamaha MG102C. His background vocal (SM58) got a dedicated channel on the Yamaha. My Ibanez bass was run direct into the mixer. My background vocal (Sennheiser 835) got its own channel on the mixer. Our lead singer plays rhythm guitar. His guitar signal went guitar to POD to mixer. After the necessary EQ and gain tweaks, this mixed signal went to channel 2 on the Compact.

All four of us agree that this is the best sound we have achieved at our practices. Everyone could hear everyone else. The mix was good. We had some minor feedback issues, but we worked them out fairly easily. To boot, we'll be able to set up in just a few minutes.

For our purposes, there is absolutely no need to buy one Compact or L1 per musician. With the help of a modest but good quality mixer, our 4 piece band has been able to secure a tone quality and mix out of one Compact that we are very happy with.
quote:
Originally posted by Rick330man:

For our purposes, there is absolutely no need to buy one Compact or L1 per musician. With the help of a modest but good quality mixer, our 4 piece band has been able to secure a tone quality and mix out of one Compact that we are very happy with.


Well, that's great that it has worked out so well. However, for a gig, you don't think it would work the same way, do you? That would be the reason for more units, as I can't imagine a four piece rock band going through one compact unit.
Your point is well taken, but I think there are several alternate routes to reach the goal you reference.

To my way of thinking the beauty of the Bose L1 system is that it puts new options on the table. Our tweak on the concept works for us. Through our singer, we are aware of a band in Central Florida that gigs regularly set up very similarly to how we did. They were as interested in the results of our experiment with the Compact as we were in theirs with the L1. Maybe we are onto something. For bands that like the "L1 Approach" but are on a budget, perhaps our take opens a door for them.

Our band's venture into the "L1 Approach" is still very much a work in progress, but we are off to a good start. The "L1 Approach" has firmly secured its spot as our solid foundation from which to build. On a broader scale, however, it is now a more mainstream concept. It will be challenged by those thinking outside the "L1 Approach" box. We'll interject some traditional approaches. I'd like to experiment with a powered sub and/or monitor, which might sound like heresy to L1 purists. This is nothing more than our take on the the journey every band undertakes in the quest for tone.

We'll have fun with this.
Hi Rick330man,

I enjoyed your story, that progression is exactly the same as what happened to my band back in 2003 with the Classic L1.
It surprised me that your single Compact handled all that...but not really.
Creative human beings can make anything work if they want to.

Since 2003, I have owned 3 Classic L1s, and 3 Model IIs, and gone through various successful bands.
The one-per-player approach was the best, no doubt, but my gigs using an L1 or two for up to 5 players were also great.
The L1 can work in all kinds of ways, that's what makes it so valuable, even when not used as intended.
It's intention, one-per-player, is not a marketing ploy, it was a cure for bad sounding music.

I'm sure back in the day, when guitar amps first came out, manufacturers suggested one-per-player.
Surely too, some people thought they were just out to make money, and ganged up on one poor little amp.
At any rate, I am happy to read that the Compact worked out for your group, and this is only the beginning.
Every Compact that you add now, and approach one-per-player, will improve your sonic sound scape.
quote:
Originally posted by Rick330man:
I'm new to this forum, but I am a 30 + year guitar and bass player. Here is our band's twist on the Compact.

Our lead singer showed up to our last band practice last week and surprised us with a newly purchased Compact. The last time we had spoken, he had told us he was looking at a Samson system. The Bose was a surprise.

He showed us the Compact and explained the concept behind it, which was foreign to me and to our lead guitarist. I listened with interest. As a band, we've been trying for a while to set up for practices with less clutter. I studied the whole thing and proposed that we use a mixer to run a mixed signal into channel 2 and go amp-less. Understand that we are not an acoustic band. We are playing classic and mainstream rock.

We ran the lead vocal on channel 1 on the Compact, as the design concept calls for. Channel 2 was fed the signal from my humble and reliable Yamaha MG102C mixer, which handled the rest of our 4 piece band. Our lead guitar hooked up his Fernandes Ravelle to a Vox Sound Lab and then went direct to the Yamaha MG102C. His background vocal (SM58) got a dedicated channel on the Yamaha. My Ibanez bass was run direct into the mixer. My background vocal (Sennheiser 835) got its own channel on the mixer. Our lead singer plays rhythm guitar. His guitar signal went guitar to POD to mixer. After the necessary EQ and gain tweaks, this mixed signal went to channel 2 on the Compact.

All four of us agree that this is the best sound we have achieved at our practices. Everyone could hear everyone else. The mix was good. We had some minor feedback issues, but we worked them out fairly easily. To boot, we'll be able to set up in just a few minutes.

For our purposes, there is absolutely no need to buy one Compact or L1 per musician. With the help of a modest but good quality mixer, our 4 piece band has been able to secure a tone quality and mix out of one Compact that we are very happy with.


Keep us posted to as to how well the 1 Compact did for the gig ~ I know I'm interested!

thanks!
As some of you may know from some of my other posts, we use 2 L1 Model II's in my band with 2 T1's and 5 B1's (I'm contemplating getting one more).

I play in 3 four piece classic rock bands and I use the L1's differently in each band. For my main band we use electronic drums, no amps and everything goes through the L1's.

I would love it if we had 2 more systems and each performer had his own but aside from the prohibitive cost, there are just too many places that we play that don't have the room for 4 of these units on stage and that's considering that we have no amps and a small electronic drum kit.

I'll hand it to Bose, the design is amazing and the foot print is small but when you start adding extra B1's to handle bass and drums that footprint starts to expand a little. And getting 4 of them behind you with enough room to not have your mic 3 feet from the tower is often a problem. It seems bar owners these days really don't have any idea how much room a band needs to set up. More often than not We go into a space and can fit only the drummer on the stage and the rest of us are setting up on the dance floor.

Keep in mind that with the old system, yes we had a few small amps behind us but the main speakers would be in front of us not taking up stage space and the monitors in these "band spilling into the dance floor" type bars would almost act like barriers as opposed to what happens now when impervious dancers knock my mic into my teeth.

Again I would love to try 1 per person with 7 to 10 feet between the performer and the L1 and a decent amount of space between performers but most of the time I'm lucky if I have a 7 X 10 foot space to set up the whole band. The drummer even with his small kit is at minimum 5 X 5 feet with no L1 directly behind him and the rest of us and the L1's cram in to what's left. Some rooms we have a little more space some rooms less and some are just weird and not really square. One of them we have to work around the fireplace hearth and mantle. I guess by now I'm making my point, in most of these spaces we wouldn't fit 4 L1's even if we owned them.

You have no idea how much I would love to truly experience the magic of the L1's as they were intended to be used. It's just really hard to justify spending another 6 to 7 thousand dollars for something that's going to be left at home for most of the gigs. So we "get by" with 2 systems. And I use the term "get by" because even getting by it's the best performance experience any of us have ever had.
It sure seems that having to use four B-1s just to get some bottom makes little sense. I've owned a classic L-1 for years, and returned the B-1 within the 45-day time-frame, as I was never impressed with it. Small, with no power or adjustment capabilities, it added nothing we could hear. I then purchased a couple self-powered subs, one smaller, one larger, for about the cost of one & a half B-1s. The smaller works fine everywhere but if we are outdoors & really have to project some distance. The thought of having to lug around & set up four speaker cabinets, when one does just fine, simply seems crazy, especially when one of the main pluses of the Bose system is its compactness...
quote:
Originally posted by StevenCee (Saxman7):
returned the B-1 within the 45-day time-frame,........... , it added nothing we could hear.


Hi Saxman,

Knowing for certain that not only do I hear things that are only in my head, I wonder what I might be missing because there are certain frequencies I don't hear, I wouldn't argue with someone about something they hear, or don't hear. I will however assure you (and others who might not have yet experienced an L1 with B1) that there is a big difference between a Classic or a Model I with and without a B1.

I think sometimes we forget the L1 systems were designed to provide a very natural sound when EQ'd flat. On the Classic and Model I, there are three bands of EQ to modify that to something that we find more personally pleasing.

I do understand that some find the L1 systems lacking for one reason or another, but, many are quite happy with the easy load in, transport, and compact stacking the B1's provide, as well as a well rounded, very natural low end.

O..
quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm:


Hi Saxman,

Knowing for certain that not only do I hear things that are only in my head, I wonder what I might be missing because there are certain frequencies I don't hear, I wouldn't argue with someone about something they hear, or don't hear. I will however assure you (and others who might not have yet experienced an L1 with B1) that there is a big difference between a Classic or a Model I with and without a B1.

I think sometimes we forget the L1 systems were designed to provide a very natural sound when EQ'd flat. On the Classic and Model I, there are three bands of EQ to modify that to something that we find more personally pleasing.

O..


Hi Oldghm, I don't know what you mean by "three bands of EQ"? Do you mean on the L1 or the B1, I would guess the B1, cause I don't know of where any EQ is on the L1. Oh, I almost forgot, it's on the remote!
Ok... But what do you mean they were designed to run flat, for a natural sound? Every venue is different, so running the EQ always the same, isn't going to produce a natural sound everywhere. Plus, the EQ has to match what instruments are coming through the system, etc., & taking the acoustics of whatever room or space we happen to be in. Of course, I begin with everything flat, and only adjust when it "sounds" necessary. And you are very correct, we all hear things differently, that I've learned a long time ago.

As for a "big difference" when using the L1 with or without a B1 or other sub-woofer, that's debatable. I've used mine many times without a sub, & it can still sound very good, and then there are other times when I'll use a sub, again, it's all how we hear it. I have just found that having a good powered sub, with various adjustable sound parameters, gave us far great flexibility, and the ability to get the sound & power of the bottom end that we need for various sized venues. I guess I don't buy into the "perfectly attuned" concept, that precludes any further adjustment, as if one setting fits all....

The lack of adjustable settings has always been my only real complaint, since the beginning. Lack of effects, a line out, etc, has forced me to always use a sub-mixer along with my L1, and obviously Bose realized this eventually, thus the T1, etc. However, $500 + having to pay for a power cord, is a pretty hefty additional cost, and with only four channels, it's still not practical for me, as I often need 5 or 6 inputs.

I do love how my L1 sounds, and especially appreciate the amount of dispersal without much sound drop-off, as it allows for smaller & larger venues without ever having to blast the people in the front, & allows us to do without extra monitor speakers. And I would like to get one more eventually, as I know that would really help to fill the place with more good sound...
Morning Saxman,

You asked, "But what do you mean they were designed to run flat, for a natural sound?"

Well, that's not exactly what I said. What I meant was, ........ When a preset is chosen to match the instrument or vocal mic in use and when the EQ controls for that channel reflect neither a cut or a boost, the system EQ is designed to provide a very natural spectral balance for that application.

The Bose engineers have given all of us an equal starting point that is much closer to the desired result than any other maker of sound equipment.

I am not suggesting that we leave things in that "flat" state. We all, well most of us, try to enhance our sound to a mystical level of tone and balance that will be sure to not go unnoticed by the masses. Smile

Just guessing, are you using a mixer and perhaps not able to take advantage of the "presets" for individual instruments/vocals or perhaps presets don't exist for your chosen instruments? When a preset is available it makes EQ'ing much easier because of the great starting point. The T1 refines that even further by offering zEQ. zEQ will adjust the three bands of EQ to the frequency range that is determined by the chosen preset.

While the T1 has only 4 channels and 5 inputs I think that is in keeping with the general design idea/intent that the L1 was intended as a sound reproduction system for an individual.

Before Bose, I always used a Real Time Analyzer with my systems, in my experience, there is considerably less difference from room to room with the L1s than with conventional equipment and it is not necessary to "EQ the Room".

A quick search suggests the crossover for the L1 Classic and Model I is 180Hz with a B1, and the low end cutoff is 110Hz without a B1. So if there is no B1 attached there will be no reproduction of anything that extends below 110Hz. For many vocals and instruments that might not be an issue, but for anything that makes noise in the 40 to 110 Hz range, the difference could be considerable.

While searching I also found posts by you that date back to 2005 where you talked about using a sub from a different maker with results that you found satisfying, so I know you have settled into a setup that works as desired for you, and it is not my intent to try to change that. I offer this information primarily as an opinion different than you expressed when talking about the B1 saying, "it added nothing we could hear".

O..
quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm:
Morning Saxman,

Just guessing, are you using a mixer and perhaps not able to take advantage of the "presets" for individual instruments/vocals or perhaps presets don't exist for your chosen instruments? When a preset is available it makes EQ'ing much easier because of the great starting point. The T1 refines that even further by offering zEQ. zEQ will adjust the three bands of EQ to the frequency range that is determined by the chosen preset.

While the T1 has only 4 channels and 5 inputs I think that is in keeping with the general design idea/intent that the L1 was intended as a sound reproduction system for an individual.

While searching I also found posts by you that date back to 2005 where you talked about using a sub from a different maker with results that you found satisfying, so I know you have settled into a setup that works as desired for you, and it is not my intent to try to change that. I offer this information primarily as an opinion different than you expressed when talking about the B1 saying, "it added nothing we could hear".

O..


True, using the mixer means I can't make use of the presets per individual mic, plus, there were never the promised pre-sets for saxophones or flute use. And while I need 5 or 6 channels, I don't use them all at once, but have one for flute, one for sax, another for my wind synth, one for backing tracks, etc, so only two or maybe three may be used at one time. I have tried panning tracks to one side, and my mics to the other, then try to use a mic pre-set, but they never seemed to be quite a match. I have used pre-sets at times for the EQ difference some make, or the loudness one, etc....

And while I understand that the T1's use is more in line with the concept of an individual's sound reproduction system, which makes it's cost that much more prohibitive, on top of that of the system itself. To have each musician shell out $3,000 each, for their sound, is not something in reach of many musicians out there today...
We did a little more experimenting at practice, but the only thing that made a significant difference was the introduction into the mix of a powered subwoofer fed off of our humble little Yamaha MG102C mixer. All four of us agreed that it improved our sound. We added an inexpensive little ART mic tube preamp to use a bass DI. Otherwise, it has just been a matter of EQ tweaks on the mixer to fine tune the signal being sent into channel 2 on the Bose Compact.

We really like the sound we are getting using this set up (Compact with a little Yamaha mixer). The portability is great, and we feel like we are utilizing the Bose in as cost effective a manner as is possible. Yes, we could improve our sound further, but that would require a significant upgrade into a much more financially demanding family of gear. We could not justify it. This arrangement is working well for us.

Add Reply

Likes (0)
×
×
×
×