T8S Reverb doesnt sound as good as on T1 at all

Hi.

Since i really love my T1 mixer and I really needed more channels, I "uppgraded" to T8S, and have now tested it booth live and compared it side by side to the T1.

Here are my thoughts and questions:

The sound without effects is very close, but I do feel that I can hear some small differences in the preamps. Little more defined in the highs and lows compared to the T1. But they do sound very similar.

I tried to copy all the settings from my T1 that always sounded great in every situations. But got a little bit confused when it came to the Reverb, I couldn´t event get close to the reverb sounds on the T1. That was something we really noticed at the gig a couple days ago. It sounded not at all like it used to. Totally dry.

I read yesterday that there was some firmware updates, and some of them was about the reverb. So I A/B tested my T8S and T1 before I did the update to 10.0.10. And A/B tested them afterwards, and they do still sound totally different.

In my T1 I have a medium reverb set to 1.70s Bal:50%. And the channel mix 40% and bright 50%. And that works great with a Shure Beta58.

If I try to set the same on the T8S (the difference is that the time i set to % instead of s. But the 1.70s is about 50% so I set the percentage to 50% to start with.) And I cant´t here no reverb at all. No differens in sound if I mute the reverb or unmute it.

If I increase the percentage to nearly full, and the bright to 100% there is reverb but its still darker and "muffled" kind of in the background and not close to the sound. And sounds sort of metallic (like it does when you overdoing the settings on the reberb) It doesnt sound good at all, unuseful to me, unfortently.

I was hoping that the T8S should have the same or a little better reverb than the T1, wich have a good reverb, but not as good as my RCF M18-mixer. But the T8S reverb is really a couple steps down from the T1.

Or have I missed anything? Any settings, or other upgrades beside the firmware 10.0.10?

I was planning to sell my T1 and RCF M18, and replace them with the T8S, but at the moment thats impossible because of the reverb actually.

I would really like to get some comments on this thread. 
Thanks

/ Daniel

Original Post

Hi Daniel,

Congratulations on getting your new T8S.

Daniel Blohm posted:

Hi.

Since i really love my T1 mixer and I really needed more channels, I "uppgraded" to T8S, and have now tested it booth live and compared it side by side to the T1.

Here are my thoughts and questions:

The sound without effects is very close, but I do feel that I can hear some small differences in the preamps. Little more defined in the highs and lows compared to the T1. But they do sound very similar.

I tried to copy all the settings from my T1 that always sounded great in every situations. But got a little bit confused when it came to the Reverb, I couldn´t event get close to the reverb sounds on the T1. That was something we really noticed at the gig a couple days ago. It sounded not at all like it used to. Totally dry.

I read yesterday that there was some firmware updates, and some of them was about the reverb. So I A/B tested my T8S and T1 before I did the update to 10.0.10. And A/B tested them afterwards, and they do still sound totally different.

That's good to know you are using the latest firmware.

For others reading along you can get that here:
T4S T8S Firmware Update Instructions

In my T1 I have a medium reverb set to 1.70s Bal:50%. And the channel mix 40% and bright 50%. And that works great with a Shure Beta58.

If I try to set the same on the T8S (the difference is that the time i set to % instead of s. But the 1.70s is about 50% so I set the percentage to 50% to start with.) And I cant´t here no reverb at all. No differens in sound if I mute the reverb or unmute it.

The time setting for reverb on the T4S/T8S is expressed as % (percent) of the time range for each type of reverb.

Type        Time Range
Plate0 – 4.6 s
Small0 – 0.8 s
Medium0 – 1.9 s
Large0 – 3.5 s
Cavern0 – 7.0 s



100 % is 10 seconds. So the equivalent to your T1® setting would be 17% (see detailed notes below).

If I increase the percentage to nearly full, and the bright to 100% there is reverb but its still darker and "muffled" kind of in the background and not close to the sound. And sounds sort of metallic (like it does when you overdoing the settings on the reberb) It doesnt sound good at all, unuseful to me, unfortently.

It sounds as though you may have set the reverb to Aux instead of Main.

Aux

instead of Main

OR

Aux

Instead of Main



I was hoping that the T8S should have the same or a little better reverb than the T1, wich have a good reverb, but not as good as my RCF M18-mixer. But the T8S reverb is really a couple steps down from the T1.

Or have I missed anything? Any settings, or other upgrades beside the firmware 10.0.10?

I was planning to sell my T1 and RCF M18, and replace them with the T8S, but at the moment thats impossible because of the reverb actually.

I would really like to get some comments on this thread. 
Thanks

/ Daniel

Please double check. If you have set the Menu to Aux in the Global and channel settings, you won't hear a difference when you bypass the reverb. And if you push the volume up, you may hear some cross-channel reverb coming from the Aux sub-mix.

ST


Here's an overview of setting Reverb.

Adding Reverb to a Channel

The Reverb function applies a user-adjustable amount of reverb to the selected channel. To select the type of reverb, see “Selecting a Reverb Type” below. Note: To mute the Reverb effects, press the Mix control. Press it again to unmute.

  1. Press or rotate the Menu control and select which output (Main or Aux) to send the reverb to.
  2. Rotate the Mix control to adjust the desired mix of dry signal (0%) to wet signal (100%).
  3. Rotate the Bright control to equalize the high frequencies of reverb applied to the selected channel

Setting Global Reverb Type

Selecting a Reverb Type

The Reverb Type function allows you to select the type of reverb that is applied to all input channels. The decay time (Time) and balance (Bal) are adjustable. Balance controls the ratio of early-to-late reflections.

Note: To mute the Reverb, press the Type control. Press it again to unmute.

Global Reverb Settings are different from the T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine.
T4S/T8S ToneMatch® Mixers Global Reverb settings
MenuMain or Aux 1 (apply following settings to Main or Aux)
TypePlate, Small, Medium, Large, Cavern
Time
Type        Time Range
Plate0 – 4.6 s
Small0 – 0.8 s
Medium0 – 1.9 s
Large0 – 3.5 s
Cavern0 – 7.0 s
BalancePercentage (ratio of early/later reflections)
T1 ToneMatch® Audio Engine Global Reverb settings
TypePlate, Small, Medium, Large, Cavern
TimeMilliseconds from 0.20 - 9.79 seconds
BalancePercentage (ratio of early/later reflections)



  1. Select Reverb Type with the rotary selector.
  2. Press or rotate the Menu control and select which output to send the reverb too. You can send a different reverb type to either the Main or Aux sends.
  3. Rotate the Type control to display the list of reverbs:
    • Plate – Creates the ambiance of a typical studio plate reverb. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters.
    • Small – Creates the ambiance of a small-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters.
    • Medium – Creates the ambiance of a medium-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters.
    • Large – Creates the ambiance of a large-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters.
    • Cavern – Creates the ambiance of an extremely large space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. A unique and interesting reverb effect.
  4. Rotate the Type control to scroll through the reverb list and highlight the desired reverb type.
  5. Press the Type control to select.
  6. Rotating the Time control controls the decay time of the selected reverb model from its minimum decay time to its maximum decay time. At 0%, the decay time will be at minimum and will simulate the smallest room size available to the currently selected reverb type. At 100%, the decay time will be at maximum and will simulate the largest room size available to the currently selected reverb type. Each reverb type has their own usable range of decay times that work best for the selected model type. The Reverb Decay parameter allows you to adjust the reverb time between the specific ranges that work best for the selected reverb model type.
  7. Press the Time control to switch to Bal. Rotate the Bal. control to adjust the early-to-late reflection ratio (0% = all early reflections, 100% = all late reflections).



Source: T4S/T8S Reverb Settings

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Thank you for an fantastic answer/effort/support.
Unfortently it didn't fix the "problem".

I was earlier also thinking about main/aux settings, and have tried it.

Im sitting now and comparing the two medium reverbs.
I would say that the T8S sounds with the BRIGHT 100% compares to T1 BRIGHT 5%

And T8S TIME 90% compares to T1 1.70s (estimated counting seconds)
If I set it to 17% as you suggested or 50% like I tried before, the reverb i so short that "there is no reverb".

Hi Daniel,

I've found out a little more - and made corrections to my posts above.

First - the Reverb engine in the T4S/T8S is new and improved from the T1®.

As a result, there is no direct mapping from the T1® settings to the T4S/T8S.

Here is how the percentages are applied to each type of reverb.

Time is
percentage
of
Time Range
for each
Type

Type        Time Range
Plate0 – 4.6 s
Small0 – 0.8 s
Medium0 – 1.9 s
Large0 – 3.5 s
Cavern0 – 7.0 s

So your Medium 1.7 seconds on the T1® becomes

Medium 90%  (1.7/1.9 = 90%) on the T8S.

Try turning up the Mix to 50% and experimenting with the Brightness.

ST

Finally I had time to test your suggested settings.

Im sorry but it still doesn't sound like the old reverb. And of course if Its a complete new reverb it probably won't.

But I still have a hard time get at "good" sounding reverb from the T8S. It doesn't matter which Type I use, all reverbs have no "pre-reverb" or what I shall call it. Its completely dry, and after the dry sound there is a reverb "tail" that is quite muffled, dark sounding. I can't at any settings get a "big" ballad sound if you get my point. Its just dry with a to my eras quite dark and metallic tail.

Best sound I get so far is Type: Large Bal: 100% Time 30%. Chanel mix 40% Bright: 100%. But that sounds like a gated reverb or a short delay. Not a "big" sounding reverb.

A suggestion...
Would it be possible in a future update to get some reverb presets to choose from? On my RCF M18 mixer there are a lot presets to choose from and I can get great sounds direct just by choosing one that I like, and maby just fine-tune it a little. Here I am trying and trying and still don't get any good results. To my ears they all sound like a Plate reverb.

Hi Daniel,

I'm sorry we can't do a better job to get the sound you want.

Are you listening in a small room or a large performance space?

Thank you for the suggestion about reverb presets. I've sent that idea through to our engineers.

ST

Hi,

you ask if anyone has experienced a difference between T1 and T8.  Yes, I have the T4 now which will be the same reverb for T8.  The T4/T8 is different to the T1.  I prefer the T1 at the moment but after talking to someone today at Bose they are looking at updating software on the reverb.  So, hopefully in a few weeks I'l be able to do A/B tests again between T1 & T4.  The reverbs i use are large hall and cavern and the  possible length/time of Hall reverb on T1 is 9,25 secs (on mine) and 9.98 secs on Cavern for T1.   I use 7 secs on either cavern or hall so am hoping the reverb time  will go up to what it did before, over 9 secs on both Hall and cavern.  I'm also hoping they reduce the 'tremolo' effect on this T4 everb, which sounds unnatural (noticeable on the higher frequencies unlike before on the T1 which was less but on lower frequencies and more subtle.)   At the moment the T1 reverb to me sounds better, deper and richer, than the T4 which sounds more artificial.   Anyway, looking forward to seeing what happens in the next few weeks!

Hi Everyone,

I'm having similar issues with the T8S. We played a gig last weekend and the reverb was inaudible. I am confident in that we were sending 50% reverb to mains and on each individual channel. The mix was good - but very dry.


Also - Even if the Aux channel is being assigned reverb - shouldn't you be able to send reverb to BOTH the Main and any applicable Aux output? For example, shouldn't I be able to get reverb in the mains as well as send a reverb channel to an aux line out, say for a set of in-ears? Or does this system limit you to one or the other?

Thanks in advance.

 

John

 

Hi John, (Jofen),

Jofen posted:

Hi Everyone,

I'm having similar issues with the T8S. We played a gig last weekend and the reverb was inaudible. I am confident in that we were sending 50% reverb to mains and on each individual channel. The mix was good - but very dry.

The Reverb settings are different on the T4S/T8S than the T1 (if that's your frame of reference).  If you have used a T1, you may need to set Mix and Balance higher on the T8S to get similar results.

We have more detailed notes about the reverb settings here:

T8S/T4S Reverb Settings

Please follow the link for more details.


Also - Even if the Aux channel is being assigned reverb - shouldn't you be able to send reverb to BOTH the Main and any applicable Aux output? For example, shouldn't I be able to get reverb in the mains as well as send a reverb channel to an aux line out, say for a set of in-ears? Or does this system limit you to one or the other?

Thanks in advance.

John

You can assign reverb to the Main outputs AND to Aux 1 at the same time.

This link: Reverb Settings goes to a different place within the article to which I linked above.

Does that help?

ST

Hi John,

The amount of reverb you can apply to T4/T8 is less than the T1 and the time setting is less.  I have been in contact with Bose and they are working on the software to make reverb longer if need be and the amount you can apply too will be improved, more like the T1.  So at some stage there should be a software update. 

Cheers,

John

Ive been using the T1 tone match for years now, Its an excellent piece of kit,

when I heard the t8s was being released I was excited, assuming that the t8s would improve on the already nearly perfect T1,  

However the reverbs, delays and effects where completely different,  the reverbs seemed to be all or nothing,  after a few nights of vocals being completely saturated with reverb, to dry, I had to go back  to the T1, 

from what I read the updates haven't helped, 

Could just not copy and paste the effects across from the t1,  with the t8s not having the digital connection to the l1 systems anymore,  I might as well have a desk from any company.   

Hi Rory,

I'm still waiting to hear back from Bose about the updates, so that I can upload them myself.  Hopefully I'll get some more info. soon about it.  You've probably uploaded the existing updates for T4/T8 which is nothing to do with new updates re. reverb.  So I'm waiting patiently and hoping they won't be too long....

John

Hi! Same reverb problem here, the unit was sent back because of (I will say low quality) reverb which is lacking a lot for me. Will there be any update on this matter? Is there a possibility to connect external fx like Lexicon to be used on all channels the way Bose hall is used? Thanks!

Hi ST,

I love to keep the T8s rather than return. The extra channels help including panning features and the extra Channel 9/10.

Can you help and see if this can be achieved. I like to get as close as possible the Reverb working to the original Tonematch T1.

Here are the settings on the original Tonematch T1 

Reverb Type - Time 1.75 Bal 50

Reverb - Mix 30% Bright 50% 

How can I get as close as possible on the new TonematchT8s? Your help is greatly appreciated. 

Many Thanks 

Max 

 

Hi St,

Reverb type ... Medium

Source ...  Vocals.... Shure Beta 58A and Neumann Kms105 miss.

T8s ..   I pan two Shure BetaA on left and two Neumann Kms105 right for stereo effect

T1 each Tower has its own Tonematch

Other channels run keyboard Yamaha Motif 88, Kick Drum (Shure Drum Mic) Overhead (Shure Sm57) Steinberger CRM4 (Electric Upright) and iPod for music playback during breaks. Keyboard is run through channel 9/10 pan left right for stereo effect. The  new T8s helps us with the extra channels for large events. 

Let me know if you need anything else. I am going to use the T8s again on a gig tonight.

Kind Regards 

Max 

Hi Max,

Here are two groups of settings to try.

Reverb Type: Large

Time 70%  Bal 75

Reverb - Mix 50% Bright 50% 

--- or ---

Reverb Type: Plate

Time 40%  Bal 75

Reverb - Mix 50% Bright 50% 

--------

If these seem too dry - raise the Time.

If these seem too dark - increase the Bright

Please let us know what you hear.

Thanks,

ST

Hi St,

 

Thank you so much for your help. Both settings are perfect and tried them out before our event tonight.  You always go above and beyond to ensure that you respond back quickly with suggestions or solutions that work.  You helped me through the Bose Classic systems over to the Model II's, original Tone match and now the new Bose T8s mixer which is excellent now that the reverb issue for me is resolved. I am keeping it and will be promoting the T8s to my vast pro and semi professional musicians. 

I want to communicate to Bose Corporate that they should be proud of having you on their team; you’re pleasant help over the phone long distance two years ago combined with excellent professional knowledge and experience, are very well respected within the Bose forum members.

Thank you again and all the very best 

Very Happy Bose Customer

Maximilan De Souza 

www.liquidjazzproject.com (We have been very successful using Bose products and promote BOSE on our website) 

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