L1 Model II

Let's talk about the L1® Portable Line Array Systems

Using proprietary Bose® technology, L1 systems combine  PA and monitors into a single, highly portable unit. The  loudspeaker can be positioned behind or to the side —and you hear what the audience hears.

Highly portable PA and monitor combined for solo performers, DJs and general-purpose use. Fixed vertical control with 180° horizontal coverage Reduced vulnerability to feedback.

Three systems to choose from (Compact, Model 1S, Model II)
Two passive bass module options (B1 or B2)
Consistent coverage and tonal balance, portability and easy setup.

T1 - One Channel only to AUX ?

If I want to distribute the 4 channels among a L1 II and a L1 classic, - would it be possible and how would I do this?
Looking at the manual shows me, that I can set the AUX-portion of a channel from 0% to 100%. But how can I avoid the signal going out over the main?
MikeZ-at-Bose writes here that this would be possible, but I just wonder how.

Wolfgang

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Original Post
Take a look at the T1 simulator at
http://t1.boseadvocate.com/T1simulation.swf

(Try this yourself in the simulator - it's pretty cool!)

-- Select interactive tour
-- Spin the T1 rotary selector to the Aux position
-- press the "Ch Edit" button for the channel that you want in aux output only
-- Notice that the readout says ch x aux output is muted. Press the edit button control under the "mute" word, then spin the same control to adjust desired volume going from this channel out to the aux output.
-- Since we want the main output suppressed on this channel, Rotate the Middel Edit button so that the aux output tap for the channel is "Pre: With Eq and FX". This means you can turn that channels main volume (normal channel volume at the bottom of the T1 all the way down to keep it out of your "main" L1's mix, while still sending the post-reverb out the aux output to another L1.
Thank you for your help ST and Jim.

Ideally I would like to use channel vol either to control output on main (e.g. CH-1 to L1-II) or to control output on AUX (e.g. CH-2 to L1-Classic).

But it looks like I can't control the AUX with the channel volume knob without sending a signal to the main bus. That would mean I can control the instrument on AUX only by entering the menu.

@ST: I guess the status screen "Output Level" only shows the current levels, but I can't change anything.

This would not be the ideal solution to distribute sources among two L1, but obviously the T1 was designed for usage with one L1 and not for two.

Possibly this could be changed in the future by an update of the T1.

Wolfgang
Can someone from Bose comment on the AUX and reverb? I've seen two posts from Wolfgang on the subject, but I can't find anything in the manuals or the forum that indicate this is how it suppose to be.

I was under the impression I could make AUX the same as the main (aside from master volume control). I'll be pretty dissapointed if there is no reverb....

-Mark
Hi all,

Wolfgang (BlackForestMan), I just confirmed (with my ears) that ToneMatch does indeed get to the Aux Out...

Mark (Skillydally), I also just confirmed Wolfgang's assertion that Reverb does not make it to the Aux Out. Not sure if this is/isn't addressable in the future. Engineers-at-Bose?

Chuck
That's a very good question. Please let me me try to explain, what's going on:
The T1 has lots of different effects units and normally they are unique to each channel. That means that the T1 has 4 individual dynamic processors, 4 modulators (chorus flanger, phaser, etc.) , 4 EQs, 4 delay processors, etc. The only exception is the reverb, which is shared by all channels.

The AUX is also a per-channel control. That means if you turn up the AUX of channel, you expect to hear signals from channel 1 and only from channel 1. However, the output of the reverb processor contains the reverb portions of all 4 channels. If we add that to the Aux, you'd hear the reverb portions of all 4 channels and not only the channel that you are interested in. In most cases, this is probably not what you want.

If you are familiar with conventional mixing consoles, you will find that the situation is quite similar. You can only route to an AUX output effects that are specific to a channel (normally these would be connected to the insert loop of this channel). The "shared" effects typically come into the board through an AUX return, which is not channel specific.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
Thanks Hilmar, for the detailed information on why there's no reverb on the aux.

From the perspective of a sound man who's familiar with mixing consoles, it's comprehensible.
From the perspective of a musician who wants replace his mixing console by an T1 and address two L1 it's not so comprehensible.

I would - for my live applications - use delay instead reverb on the AUX and therefore this isn't a very great issue for me.

For me I would ideally like to have two modes on the T1:
  • Mode 1: MAIN out, AUX out like it is now. Eventually beeing able to switch between Master vol and AUX vol, by pushing the Master Volume knob, would be very helpful (at least for me).
  • Mode 2: Stereo mode with LEFT/RIGHT out, having a common Master volume, and ideally reverb on both channels

How's about the ToneMatch presets on AUX? Are they applied on the AUX (as Chuck confirmed by his ears)? - Thats much more important for me, because I want connect two L1 and distribute the sources.

Would it be possible in the future to change the behaviour of the T1 for individual needs by a software update? (e.g. by donwloading an update to get one of the two modes above)

Wolfgang
Thanks, Hilmar. Your 'shared reverb' explanation makes good sense. Since ToneMatch presets are per channel, it also makes good sense to me that these and all per channel effects (EQs, dynamics, Mods, Delays) would make it to the Aux Out (I was sure that's what my ears were telling me), as long as the channel's Aux mode is set to either Pre: With EQ & FX or Post: After Fader...

Glad to know that no reverb on the Aux isn't a show-stopper for you, Wolfgang...

All the best,

Chuck
Thanks Hilmar, and I'll agree with Chuck, the explanation does make sense.

However, I am dissapointed it works this way. I had planned to send the master to one L1 Classic, and the AUX to a second L1 Classic and split the channels across them, effectively creating a stereo signal. Obviously I can still do this, just without the reverb.

C'est la vie. The T1 is still rockingly cool.

-Mark

P.S. I would suggest the manual and online info be updated to include this tidbit.
@Chuck:
The AUX mode "Post: After Fader" seems to be the most useful, - but here I've no chance to avoid that this channel goes on Master out.
A software switch ("Master out on/off") would be very helpful here.

@Mark:
It's in the manual, but not under the AUX section.
At the very end "Care & Maintenance" at problem "Aux output does not sound right" you can read:
quote:
Note: No reverb comes from the Aux output even if the tap point is Pre or Post.

An update of the manual and online info really would make sense.

Wolfgang
Wolfgang - I didn't realize that. It's a start, but I think it should specifically be mentioned in the AUX section.

I think this is important to be clear about b/c the "FX Mute" button mutes the FX including reverb, and the AUX has a setting for "Post FX". This sorta sounds like reverb would be included.
Highly disappointed as well. I am using this system for DJing - 2 Model II L1's, 4 B1's and the Tone Match System. It was my understanding that I would be able to produce the sound through the 2 L1's via the T1 with no problem. Now, from reading this post, it sounds as if the Reverb will not carry over to the 2nd Model II. This would create a big problem - for example, if I have a mic going through the T1, the reverb being applied to that mic would only be applied to one speaker, and this would probably sound funky.

Well, it looks like I will be using 2 mixers which is something that I was pondering already due to the limited inputs in the T1 - a DJ style mixer into which I will plug my microphone, computer, CD players. Then I will feed my master out of that mixer into the T1, so that works.

I just received my T1 today - so I haven't done anything beyond taking it out of the box and visiting the forum to see how I need to set it up.
quote:
Originally posted by ChristianB:
... That way you should have reverb on both.

Christian,

yes, you would have reverb on both L1, BUT you only will have the same signal twice and NO stereo.
This way it's not possible to put e.g. ch-1 of the T1 to the first L1 and ch-2 to the second L1 in order to achieve either stereo mode (for DJ) or separation of instruments/vocs (for musician).
It would be basically the same as chaining two L1 classic/model I.

Wolfgang
quote:
BUT you only will have the same signal twice


Wolfgang,

I was/am under the impression that was exactly what KKorpos is trying/expecting to achieve - 1 to 4 audio signals into a single T1 and the T1's output into two Model II L1s. As the T1 is mono only of couse the result would not be stereo but rather double mono.

If, however, he wants to use his L1s as a classical stereo P.A. system he might as well get rid of the T1, buy a little mixer (w/built-in f/x) and connect its left/right master out to the respective L1's analog in...

Cheers,

Christian
Still have to check this out, waiting on my second system. I purchased the T1 because I thought that it would really add some punch with the built in presets - and I am also a musician (as well as a DJ) so I figured it was a piece of audio candy that I didn't want to live without : )

I am fine with what Christian said - and will use the Master Out since I have the Model II's. I am not concerned with true stereo, I actually read some posts regarding this - and other DJ's said that they preferred using mono. When I started reading these posts about the reverb issue I was concerned because I wanted to use a more direct route and plug a mic in through the T1, and that reverb thing I read about would have caused some issues.

Thanks for everybody for the clarification with this. Pathetically enough, I have been so busy, I still haven't even plugged the T1 in to hear what it can do!!!!
I am going to go and search some other posts, but I am just checking out my set up now. Here is what I am finding - going out of T1 through port into 1 speaker - and then running the master out of the T1 into the other speaker. I am getting different volume levels from each L1 and having an issue trying to get them to equal out. It is like the Toneport pushes a bit more power through then the trs 1/4" line out into the other L1?

Any input on this would be great - as the goal is for each tower to sound like the other....meaning just like when you hook up 2 speakers to the same mixer - which is what I am basically doing, the only difference is that one is connected via the Toneport cable, the other via the trs 1/4"

Thanks for input on this? I will likely call Bose tomorrow as well.
I've not back-read anything, so forgive me if I am somehow way off:

Unless I am totally missing your hook-up...

(tonematch port to Model II, 1/4" out to another L1)

...merely adjust the trim on the powerstand that has the 1/4" hookup. We did just this thing yesterday. Actually, we had 1/4" to a model II and 1/4" to a classic, and no T1, but the same concept you describe - wanting to have the same apparent level out of each L1, controlled with a single volume control.
As separation of musical sources (voc or instrument) on several L1 is one of other great advantages of the BOSE L1-System, that is what I try to do whenever possible.
And that's what I tried to do with one T1 for two (or three) musicians.

In the meantime I've found a way how to use the ch-vol knob to controll the aux path, with very very few (hardly noticeable) signal on the master out path, by putting the AUX-Mix to 100% and reducing the trim for this channel.

So it's almost perfect for me, besides the missing reverb on aux out.

Wolfgang
Interesting. Okay, here is more info. I am using the T1 with the preset for DJ Playback music (have tried at both high and low volume). I am running XLR's from my DJ mixer into the T1. I am running the T1 through one Model II Powerstand directly via the T1 port (ethernet cable). I am also running a 1/4" from the Master output on the T1 into the 1/4" input on my SECOND Model II powerstand. The first Model II is completely controlled via the T1 volume controls. The second Model II, as stated above needs to be fiddled with via its onboard Trim controller.

What I am noticing - or my ears, is that the sound coming from my Model II that has a direct connection via the ethernet cable into it's T1 port is amazing, the preset is awesome. However, I am not getting this same great sound from my second Model II which is connected via the master out on the T1.

I have played around with the Trim on my second Model II, but I don't feel like that is doing the trick. I don't know if it is a general difference in sound quality I am hearing due to the difference in connections? Or, I considered that I had not set something on the T1 correctly. But after reading the manual and trying both the AUX output and the Master output, I am still experiencing the same discrepancies in sound. I should note that the discrepancies are minimal in the sense that what I am failing to get out of the second Model II is the GREAT Bass warmth, as well as a certain punch in general. The second model II and it's B1's just don't sound like the other Model II and it's B1's that have the direct T1 connection.

As I understand it, there should be no loss in the presets when using these output options?

If anyone has a comment on this, I would be greatly appreciative. I am going to play around some more, and call Bose later to see if this is a system limitation, or something that I am doing incorrectly on my end? I will also try turning the Aux output up to 100% and working the individual channels, as right now I only have the AUX up to 60%.

Thanks.
Hi KKorpos,

Are you running the same sound sources to both L1 Model II's or are you splitting some to one L1™ and some to the other.

If you are running the same sources to both, you could be hearing some phase cancellation.

If you listen to one L1™ connected with the analog (¼ inch) input, does it sound okay? Do this test without the ToneMatch™ connection to the the other L1™.

If so, the issue is not the method of connection, but likely some cancellation when you run both.

Edit:
PS - if you haven't tried this already, put all of your B1s together (touching) from both Systems.
Sound sources are absolutely the same.

I have all my B1's stacked right now, 4 high. If I use the one Model II with the 1/4" connection, yes, it sounds perfectly fine. Also, if I totally circumvent using the T1, meaning that I just go from my mixer into the Model II's via the 1/4" input, the sound is uniform, and the system sounds great....but NOT as great as it sounds with the DJ Playback preset on the T1 which is just super amazing to me.

I have done an ear test where I have listened to the direct T1 input into the Model II alone with out any sound from the Model II with the 1/4" input. Sounds super sweet. I Have listened then to the Model II alone that has the 1/4" input from the T1, sounds good, but still doesn't sound like the Model II that has the direct T1 input. There is a clearly a difference in what I am hearing - and I Think that it has something to do with the direct line into the Model II via T1 and the master output via 1/4" into the other Model II.

I thought about the cancellation - but what my ears are telling me is that, as I said above, the quality and tone/warmth of the sound is just different....so I wasn't thinking that it was a cancellation issue.....hum, I would love to figure this out.....I think that I will post in the DJ KJ section too, see if anyone else is running this set up.....
Hi again KKorpos,


Another thought - have you tried connecting the ¼ inch T1 connection to the L1 Model II Powerstand using a Tip-Ring-Sleeve connection at both ends.

If you are using an ordinary instrument cable (Tip Sleeve) you are running unbalanced. If you are running with a Tip-Ring-Sleeve connector at both ends you are running balanced.

I think you get 3-6 dB more gain if you run balanced. Chuck-at-Bose explained this to me a long while back and I'll have to see if I can find that reference. But in the meantime, if you haven't already done this, try it and let us know what you hear.

Thanks.

PS
Tip-Ring-Sleeve is the one on the top.



Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_plug#Tip_Ring_Sleeve

Edit:
I found my notes about running balanced to unbalanced, and it looks like it should not make a difference (balanced or unbalanced) with respect to a loss of 3-6 dB - as long as the cold connection is shorted to ground at one end or the other.

no loss

Hot ---> Tip
Cold ---> shorted to Sleeve (ground)
Ground ---> Sleeve


6 dB loss this way

Hot ---> Tip
Cold ---> Nothing
Ground ---> Sleeve

I have started a new discussion for this topic.

T1™ to L1™ Model II / Model I - Analog connection - Balanced or Unbalanced

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