Greetings,

I have upgraded my video production business to include audio support.

I recently purchased one L1 M2 w/B2 and have just found a used 2nd L1 M2 w/two 2B1 subs that appears to be in good shape as a backup.

I've been contracted to provide sound support (2 mics: 1 lapel plus 1 handheld for speeches and announcements) for a retreat at a conference center.

The room's dimensions are 40 ft x 100 ft with 15 ft ceilings.

There will be approx 300 people in the room to include families with small children, so I'm assuming that the system will be competing with some background noise.

I also need to provide an additional zone of coverage to an outdoor area just outside the first area as an overflow area for up to 200 additional people who could be spread outside in area as large 100 x 100 feet..

The two speaker zones will be 60 to 70 ft max (straight line) from each other with only a large floor to ceiling windows as barriers, so I am thinking that my trusty Lectrosonic UHF wireless plug in module would be perfect to run a wireless feed to an outdoor feed as a wired run would require at least 125 ft of cable.

To complicate things even more, they may need possibly a 3rd small indoor area where 50 will potentially gather. This area is also adjacent to the main room but is separated via drywall but only 10 feet x 50 feet (also 15 foot ceilings

I have a couple of powered speakers which would easily cover this potential 3rd area.

So my 2nd dilemma is what's the most practical way to connect the 2 or 3 zones? 

I have one T1 mixer, 1 mackie 1202 (4 to 8 inputs) and a used Behringer air xr18 mixer that I just picked up.

I realize that I may need to break this into 2 separate posts as I may try using another wireless system to connect zone 3 (wirelessly).

Thank everyone in advance, if you survived reading this far!

Original Post

Hi, jlowe,

jlowe posted:

Greetings,

I have upgraded my video production business to include audio support.

I recently purchased one L1 M2 w/B2 and have just found a used 2nd L1 M2 w/two 2B1 subs that appears to be in good shape as a backup.

I've been contracted to provide sound support (2 mics: 1 lapel plus 1 handheld for speeches and announcements) for a retreat at a conference center.

The room's dimensions are 40 ft x 100 ft with 15 ft ceilings.

Where will the stage be?

  • Centered on the 40-foot wall
  • Centered on the 100-foot wall
  • Other?

Has the room been engineered for live sound?

  • Any dampening on the walls, ceiling, or floor?
  • Any reflectors?
  • What kind of seating is provided?

Will there be any music?

  • Live
  • Prerecorded


There will be approx 300 people in the room to include families with small children, so I'm assuming that the system will be competing with some background noise.

I also need to provide an additional zone of coverage to an outdoor area just outside the first area as an overflow area for up to 200 additional people who could be spread outside in area as large 100 x 100 feet.

That will take one of your L1 Model II systems.



The two speaker zones will be 60 to 70 ft max (straight line) from each other with only a large floor to ceiling windows as barriers, so I am thinking that my trusty Lectrosonic UHF wireless plug in module would be perfect to run a wireless feed to an outdoor feed as a wired run would require at least 125 ft of cable.

To complicate things even more, they may need possibly a 3rd small indoor area where 50 will potentially gather. This area is also adjacent to the main room but is separated via drywall but only 10 feet x 50 feet (also 15 foot ceilings

I have a couple of powered speakers which would easily cover this potential 3rd area.

It sounds like you're all set for the third area.



So my 2nd dilemma is what's the most practical way to connect the 2 or 3 zones? 

I have one T1 mixer, 1 mackie 1202 (4 to 8 inputs) and a used Behringer air xr18 mixer that I just picked up.

The Behringer Air XR18 should support

  • Main output (for the main space)
  • Aux output (for the outdoor space)
  • Aux output (for third space)

I realize that I may need to break this into 2 separate posts as I may try using another wireless system to connect zone 3 (wirelessly).

Thank everyone in advance, if you survived reading this far!

I don't have anything to add about wireless systems. It sounds like you know what you're doing there.

ST

I can’t be sure that my comment will work in your situation given the spaces proximity, but I’ve used the Xvive U3 wireless system to connect a mixer to a S1 Pro. It was line of sight so not sure if the U3 will work in your case, but it may be worth at least looking into. 

Note the U3 is pitched as a wireless mic system, but the transmitter has a switch to go between mic or line. I used its line output to connect the mixer. It’s been a cool device. 

Thanks for your quick response! 

Top center of the 40ft short wall is where the speaking will take place, so the 300+ attendees will be narrow but stacked deep. No stage or risers. Standing and milling about on foot. Some with children would be sitting on the floor. One of the 100 ft walls is mostly floor to ceiling glass and the other is typical wall paper covered drywall. 

Today's walk thru appears to indicate that the lecturer will be maybe 5 to 10 feet center from that short wall. My initial thoughts today would be to stage the mixers on a 4 foot table against the long glassed wall about 10ft down (parallel to the lecturer who I'm told will wear a lapel or handheld mike). 

Plan A: L1 would be right next to me firing diagonally towards the back. 

Keep in mind that this is my first use of the L1(s) system, so I'm not sure how much volume the lecturer and first row of folks would hear as i can't really get behind him (just parallel). 

If everyone is suggesting that only one L1 would work, would it be best to stay on the to 40 ft wall (corner or 10 ft down) or in the middle of the 100 ft wall firing to the side (Plan B)?

They want soft background music playing between the talk sessions. An ipad or cell phone with a headphone jack is what I usually use.

The 15 foot ceiling appears to be a combination of new drop ceiling material and drywall which looks to be less reflective than an all drywall one.

I've read about the U3 and see that it gets mostly favorable reviews. It is also my understanding that it can receive a signal from 1 transmitters to 2 different receivers (Fantastic if the could feed Zone 2 and Zone 3). My only issue is that the batteries are rechargeable. This event is about 6 to 7 hours long which makes me nervous as I'd want to swap them, during the lunch break.

How long does your U3 last battery wise? Could the U3 be recharged over the hour break? What was your range in ft to your S1's?

My Lectrosonic UHF plugin module is pretty much the same concept as the U3 but is circa 2003. It uses a custom "crystal" single frequency, also does mic/line level and easily does 200 to 300 ft. It uses 9V batteries that can be easily swapped. I also have access to an AudioTechnica AT1001 guitar system wireless transmitter/receiver which I believe could also be used as a wireless transmitter to one of the zones. But I would need to test the range.

Plan B would be to run wired cables to all the speakers systems but that would be a major pain.

 

Thanks again!

 

An update on yesterday's event.

I've attached a rough sketch to help with the discussion.

This was a religious celebration which lasted from 9am to 4pm. The event started with an 1 hour prayer service and then 1 hr discussion. The primary inside area held approx 300 attendees. Overflow outside area was about 200 people.

I ended up using 2 L1M2 systems and 2 small Anchor Air portable (battery powered and wireless) speakers inside . The Airs belong to the client and were excellent at filling in where the L1s lacked a bit. They are roughly the size of S1 pros which I'll be definitely adding.

Outside area was spread out ...was mix of tables/chairs, pony ride, cotton candy stand, inflatable slide, etc... the vendors brought a couple of generators but weren't too loud.

After the morning activities, people moved freely back and forth from inside to the outside.

I ended up using 2 F1's outside and used a third Anchor Air to subsidize.

The good:

I tried buying the XVIVE U3 but my local music store could only get one pair shipped. I got very lucky as I picked up 2 same frequency Sennheiser G3 systems on Craigslist that worked great!

After pairing both G3 systems to the same frequency but only powering on one G3 transmitter, I attached one G3 Receiver to the Anchor Air Primary which transmitted to the other two units. I attached the other G3 Receiver to one of the F1's and then daisy chained it to the other via an balanced cable. The sound was amazing (especially the music)!

The bad:

Lots of feedback from the inside body mic (lav). Especially when the folks began to pray! I pointed the L1 closest to the lecturer away but it only helped a little... The handheld was much better but was not desirable to the person leading the prayers... Whenever the people stood, much less feedback but as soon as they knelt... BAM! more feedback!

Any suggestions where I should have placed the L1s differently.

Sometimes the prayer leader faced away from the crowd...

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Hi, jlowe,

Thanks for the update and report on the event.

I'm sorry - I missed that you are using a lapel mic.

jlowe posted:

Greetings,

I have upgraded my video production business to include audio support.

I recently purchased one L1 M2 w/B2 and have just found a used 2nd L1 M2 w/two 2B1 subs that appears to be in good shape as a backup.

I've been contracted to provide sound support (2 mics: 1 lapel plus 1 handheld for speeches and announcements) for a retreat at a conference center.

The room's dimensions are 40 ft x 100 ft with 15 ft ceilings.

Lapel or lavalier microphones can be troublesome for live sound reinforcement when the microphone is within the coverage area of the loudspeakers.  This not unique to Bose systems. If the microphone can pick up the loudspeakers as well or better than the talker, you'll probably have feedback. 

Lapel or lavalier microphones can be particularly challenging because they are usually

  • Omnidirectional (picking up sound from all directions)
  • Several times farther away from the sound source than a headset microphone (microphone within an inch of the talker's mouth)



For better results in this kind of application, you'll have to put a directional microphone closer to the sound source (the talker's mouth) or move the loudspeakers farther away, and use loudspeakers that are more directional (e.g., the F1 Model 812 loudspeakers are more directional than the L1s).

For more general tips about microphone feedback, please see:

Microphone Feedback

ST

An update on yesterday's event.

I've attached a rough sketch to help with the discussion.

This was a religious celebration which lasted from 9am to 4pm. The event started with an 1 hour prayer service and then 1 hr discussion. The primary inside area held approx 300 attendees. Overflow outside area was about 200 people.

I ended up using 2 L1M2 systems and 2 small Anchor Air portable (battery powered and wireless) speakers inside . The Airs belong to the client and were excellent at filling in where the L1s lacked a bit. They are roughly the size of S1 pros which I'll be definitely adding.

Outside area was spread out ...was mix of tables/chairs, pony ride, cotton candy stand, inflatable slide, etc... the vendors brought a couple of generators but weren't too loud.

After the morning activities, people moved freely back and forth from inside to the outside.

I ended up using 2 F1's outside and used a third Anchor Air to subsidize.

The good:

I tried buying the XVIVE U3 but my local music store could only get one pair shipped. I got very lucky as I picked up 2 same frequency Sennheiser G3 systems on Craigslist that worked great!

After pairing both G3 systems to the same frequency but only powering on one G3 transmitter, I attached one G3 Receiver to the Anchor Air Primary which transmitted to the other two units. I attached the other G3 Receiver to one of the F1's and then daisy chained it to the other via an balanced cable. The sound was amazing (especially the music)!

The bad:

Lots of feedback from the inside body mic (lav). Especially when the folks began to pray! I pointed the L1 closest to the lecturer away but it only helped a little... The handheld was much better but was not desirable to the person leading the prayers... Whenever the people stood, much less feedback but as soon as they knelt... BAM! more feedback!

Any suggestions where I should have placed the L1s differently.

Sometimes the prayer leader faced away from the crowd...

Would you have a recommendation for using the 2 L1s in the inside area? The sound spread is quite nice..

During the teardown phase of the event, we did experiment with a headset worn mic. It was a little better but still had more feedback, when I increased the volume. A cardioid or super cardioid would obviously work better along with a repositioning.

I suppose that I could swap the F1s and put them on stands slightly in front of the (inside area) lecturers and fill in the back with 2 smaller (S1 Pro or Anchor Air speakers). The F1's do have that array feature, so I could place them higher and then place them in the "J" position.

The L1s could then be used as outside background speakers...

On another note... My local music store is trying to do right by me, after the whole Xvive U3 ordering debacle. They have offered me an expanded 4 pack receiver/ one transmitter Alto Stealth system at a very good price.

This would be an incredible tool as my current Sennheiser system only has 2 receivers which of course I could add to with their current G3 or G4 receiver. They are the most expensive, however, the incredible range and lower bass frequency made the 12inch F1's really thump. My units are in the 510 to 575.000 range.

The Alto Stealth has mostly good reviews but it has its retractors. They are AC powered only but for powered speakers, it would be easy to just simply pigtail off the AC feed to the speakers. They have 16 channels. I'm not sure what the frequency range is. Obviously, anything in the 600 mhz range will be off limits by July 2020.

The U3s have a fantastic following online. You charge their internal lithium battery which lasts up to 6 hours but they reportedly can be connected to a small power bank, if needed. They have only 6 channels on the 2.4 GHz frequency band. 

CityFolk, I'm sure everyone would appreciate any insight or experience into your work with the U3s...

Any experience with the above would be a great contribution and I'm sure would be appreciated by all.

 

 

Hey ST,

The X and Y represent the lecturers. During the prayer portion, the X person would face toward the audience (left to right on the diagram) but would also kneel and pray with his back to the audience.

My diagraming skills need some work! 

Hi, jlowe,

jlowe posted:

Hey ST,

The X and Y represent the lecturers. During the prayer portion, the X person would face toward the audience (left to right on the diagram) but would also kneel and pray with his back to the audience.

My diagraming skills need some work! 

Your diagramming skills are fine. I just needed a little more information.

jlowe posted:

The ABABABABA represented the 300 attendees who were facing left in the diagram.

The room was 40 ft x 100 ft.

Here are a couple of ideas. We're trying to reduce the amount of sound getting to the microphones.

A. Keep L1 systems inside (more even coverage front to back)

JloweL1

Note: The AA speakers are optional.  Ideally, you would set them up with digital delay (approximately 70 milliseconds) to synchronize the sound with the L1 systems at the front.

B. Use the F1 systems inside (louder up front, not as loud in the back)

JloweF1

You may have a greater need for the AA speakers, and you'll want to use a digital delay to synchronize the sound with the F1 systems.

Either A or B could be an improvement, but getting a directional head-worn microphone to replace the lavalier microphone will probably make the biggest difference.

ST

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