Hi esparka,

Thanks for using The Sketcher!

This is just a quick note to send you a link to your Sketch in case you want to review it, edit it, or share it with others.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --


Quoting esparka from The Sketcher
quote:
We have been using 3 Bose I classics and I bought my 2nd tonematch today. We have
Some great shows coming up so I have many small kinks to address. My drummer wants to bring a rack of noise gates for his drums. W/ the 2nd tonematch, we now have gates for the kick and the two c-3000 condensor overheads. We plan to try both to ensure the TM gates are keeping up with his old standbys. I have the voicelive and I want to put the left in one Bose and the right in another bose to compensate for the rockin' band. At our higher energy, the latest show had a bit of feedback problems. That is sometimes nonexistent and others, the monster rears it's head (feedback). Is there a tutorial available on the proper setting of the comp., Limiter, parametric, EQ. etc.....? We would love to be guided to relevant posts, etc.....!
Thanks for your time,
Ken

Original Post
Ken's revised Sketch



-- click image to make changes to the live version --

Legend
L1® Model I
L1® Model II
T1 ToneMatch® audio engine
Orange numbers are Systems and Inputs using those Systems.
Blue ringed numbers are Channel connections to/from the Classic and Model I Systems.
Blue filled numbers are Channel connections to/from the T1 ToneMatch® audio engine.
Green numbers are for general notes about the Sketch and connections to non-Bose gear.
Last edited by ST
Hi Ken,

I looked at the layout and the connections. I think I understand what you are doing.

I would probably try moving the outermost L1®s in toward the middle like this.


-- click image to make changes to the live version --

This might help with monitoring. If it does you might be able to run at lower levels and that could help with feedback.

Effects

KickGate
Definitely try the KickGate™ effect for the Kick Drum. You will find it on the
Main Selector: Comp/Gate
The last two options are KickGate1 and KickGate2

Other Effects
I generally look at the effects in the order they appear on the Main Selector.

ToneMatch® Audio Engine - Presets
So with all the other effects off and EQ bypassed - find the Preset that sounds the best for your input.

zEQ
Once you have chosen your Preset, the zEQ will set the EQ points (low/mid/high) that work well with the Preset. I generally approach this with a light touch working at removing things that seem excessive. I tend not to increase anything with zEQ.

ParaEQ
We have several notes about the ParaEQ


Comp/Gate
The KickGate is in this family of effects and you can use this with your Kick Drum.
You can use the Noise Gate to effectively mute the microphone when there is not a strong vocal
See: Comp Gate / Noise Gate

Other Tips and Tricks
We have a collection of general tips for the T1®. Some of the links above were to specific sections in this longer article. I hope you pick up a few more things that will be helpful to you in:

T1 Tips and Tricks


That's all from me for now. Let's hope that we can get some help with the rest.
Hi Ken,

Let me feature this part of your original post so others can chime in and help.

quote:
That is sometimes nonexistent and others, the monster rears it's head (feedback). Is there a tutorial available on the proper setting of the comp., Limiter, parametric, EQ. etc.....? We would love to be guided to relevant posts, etc.....!
Thanks for your time,
Ken,

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think you'd like some help on how to set effects to minimize feedback?

Couple quick primer questions -

1.) whats feeding back? (vocals, drum mics, everything?)
2.) when does it feedback? (when the mic is 'open' and nobody is playing/singing into it, or while someone is singing etc.)

Maximum gain before feedback, here are some general tips:

- mic technique. sing with your lips touching the windscreen. this is the single most important thing to do. try not to point an open vocal microphone directly at an L1. also, tilt the mic up to the ceiling just a bit.
- leave compressors and limiters off. they raise the noise floor and make the stage more prone to feedback.
- gates. gates are very useful to prevent open mics from feeding back. you want to set the gate at the highest threshold setting that you an that isn't noticeable when you begin to sing/play. let me know and i can give a more in depth explanation
- EQ. there is a 'high gain' preset in the T1 in the vocal mic category. this turns the highs down a bit to prevent that classic high pitched vocal mic feedback.
- para EQ. this is advanced, but you can set the para EQ to 'notch out' the first frequency that wants to feedback. this is called 'ringing out' the microphone. i can give you some more details here if you are interested.
- last, but not least. if you are doing all the right things, try to have the band turn down, or play softer during vocal passages. the L1's can get really loud before the mics start feeding back - if something is feeding back its an instant red flag for my band to turn down.

Hope this helps,
Mike
quote:
Originally posted by MikeZ-at-Bose:
Ken,

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think you'd like some help on how to set effects to minimize feedback? .......

Couple quick primer questions -

1.) whats feeding back? (vocals, drum mics, everything?)
2.) when does it feedback? (when the mic is 'open' and nobody is playing/singing into it, or while someone is singing etc.)

Maximum gain before feedback, here are some general tips: ..........
.......

Hope this helps,
Mike


Thanks to you guys for all the assistance.
We have a big show Tomorrow night (Sat) So we are gonna put all of this to another ongoing test.
1- The feeback comes from the two AKG c-1000 overheads for the drums. And the lead vocal mike.
- The noisegate is all we employ for any of the overheads (reverb, too, of course)
[Those condensers are the winners from last spring when I combined study of your forum w/ testing about 8 mikes myself. The c-1000 gets extra db's before feedback compared to the others.]
They are still want to have higher freq's which want to be problematic. Here, a little help w/ the parametric understanding may solve this.

- We were using the gate on the TM for the kick and that mention of "kickgate" is a headslapping moment. I hope that works even better.

As to the Lead vocal:
I have been using the sm 58 as the beta 87a was too hot. I feeds back when I step away from the mike. The noisegate has helped.
Now, I use the 87a into "Voicelive" and I am gonna send the left out to "1" and the right out to "2" bose units. (see chart)
This helps me get the vocal to cut through better (I hope). Any pointers to further this plan would be helpful. (I notice the 1/4 in. outs do not allow me to use the phantom on the Tonematch. ( The overhead c-1000 forces the tonematch phantom to be "on"." Therefore, I must now use the base channel 3 as the input. or maybe ch. 1 on the base unit so I can have eq and volume control at my fingertips.
I read that, on the voicelive, I could use the single through xlr out and, if I cut off the phantom on the voicelive, I can then plug to the tonematch but then I may not enjoy stereo effect of the voicelive to both units. (I know, I love complicated)

I do have a mind to have this end up as simple to set up and empliment as possible. The process of working it all out is the complicated part.

To end, we have a new drummer who fits us great and I hear our volume has come down as we raise our game. Looks like a discussion of the Parametric and a bit of thought to the lead vocal will help tremendously. (thanks for your time)


Also, just to let you know I went back through the gain/level set process and I now follow that process even better. That two part process to set the level has made even more of a difference. I believe the combination will be the charm. (We will post a vid next week)
quote:
Originally posted by Esparka:
quote:
Originally posted by MikeZ-at-Bose:
Ken,

Please correct me if I am mistaken, but I think you'd like some help on how to set effects to minimize feedback? .......

Couple quick primer questions -

1.) whats feeding back? (vocals, drum mics, everything?)
2.) when does it feedback? (when the mic is 'open' and nobody is playing/singing into it, or while someone is singing etc.)

Maximum gain before feedback, here are some general tips: ..........
.......

Hope this helps,
Mike


Thanks to you guys for all the assistance.
We have a big show Tomorrow night (Sat) So we are gonna put all of this to another ongoing test.
1- The feeback comes from the two AKG c-1000 overheads for the drums. And the lead vocal mike.
- The noisegate is all we employ for any of the overheads (reverb, too, of course)
[Those condensers are the winners from last spring when I combined study of your forum w/ testing about 8 mikes myself. The c-1000 gets extra db's before feedback compared to the others.]
They are still want to have higher freq's which want to be problematic. Here, a little help w/ the parametric understanding may solve this.

- We were using the gate on the TM for the kick and that mention of "kickgate" is a headslapping moment. I hope that works even better.

As to the Lead vocal:
I have been using the sm 58 as the beta 87a was too hot. I feeds back when I step away from the mike. The noisegate has helped.
Now, I use the 87a into "Voicelive" and I am gonna send the left out to "1" and the right out to "2" bose units. (see chart)
This helps me get the vocal to cut through better (I hope). Any pointers to further this plan would be helpful. (I notice the 1/4 in. outs do not allow me to use the phantom on the Tonematch. ( The overhead c-1000 forces the tonematch phantom to be "on"." Therefore, I must now use the base channel 3 as the input. or maybe ch. 1 on the base unit so I can have eq and volume control at my fingertips.
I read that, on the voicelive, I could use the single through xlr out and, if I cut off the phantom on the voicelive, I can then plug to the tonematch but then I may not enjoy stereo effect of the voicelive to both units. (I know, I love complicated)

I do have a mind to have this end up as simple to set up and empliment as possible. The process of working it all out is the complicated part.

To end, we have a new drummer who fits us great and I hear our volume has come down as we raise our game. Looks like a discussion of the Parametric and a bit of thought to the lead vocal will help tremendously. (thanks for your time)


Also, just to let you know I went back through the gain/level set process and I now follow that process even better. That two part process to set the level has made even more of a difference. I believe the combination will be the charm. (We will post a vid next week)


Ken,

Sorry to repeat myself, but let me stress that turning down, and making sure you are using good mic technique will do wonders for improving feedback. Thats the ultimate solution.

But for the time being...

The C1000's are great mics. With L1's the way to do overheads is to place the overhead mic stand *behind* the drummer, with the mics pointing slightly toward the audience. Its sort of backwards from how its usually done, but it works really well. You will not need the para EQ if you set the condensers in this way.

You'll love the kickgate. We use the kickgate on the default setting in the T1. It really tightens up the bottom end of the whole mix.

As for the lead vocal. If you need to have the lead vocals into two L1's to 'cut though', you are probably playing too loud. My head spun thinking of the connections to run the voicelive into both L1's with the restrictions :-) Keep it simple and run into one L1 and work around it by turning down. It will sound better to leave in one L1 as well. Running a mono instrument like voice into multiple sources usually degrades the sound quality (thats a different topic).

If you need, need to set up into two L1's to get through the gig post again and we can figure it out.

Good luck...let us know how the gig goes...
Mike
Thanks,
I'm gonna print all this out and we are going to have the afternoon tomorrow, on this occasion, to maximize the system.

The truth be told. The feedback I'm talking about is down to small squeeks w/ the overhead that we have fought w/. The para will probably allow me to isolate that freq.
The vocal problem has to do w/ us, as I've mentioned before, being an electric style band. Sometimes we want to be loud. (Not the obnoxious type. More like The Grateful Dead shows I attended in the early 1980's. One night they would crank the amps and you left the show w/ ringing ears and the vocal would be just reverberating. The next night they would turn way down and have the amp distortion down to create a bright sound where you could actually hear the picks sound. You know, brilliant, multi-show dynamics!)

That said, on the loud nights, I have difficulty getting the vocals to not be thin and to "cut through the mix" w/ the bose. The Voicelive takes time to fix, but I plan to test the ability of the voicelive to two bose. I hope to then lower the overall signal to below that hot, almost feeback level. We'll see.

p.s.- yes, after 4 years w/ the bose, I know how to kiss the mike. Also, I could write pages on hear about the positive aspects of this system and why I continue to plan on using nothing but the PAS to do all of our smaller venues.


p.p.s.- I read the tutorial on setting the parametric I plan to follow the process to a tee.... and..... there I am. I use the same amps and tomorrow night, it's the 1965 Super Reverb. (The 100 watt for "loud" night.)
Hi MikeZ,

Thanks for this. It makes perfect sense when you say it.
quote:
The C1000's are great mics. With L1's the way to do overheads is to place the overhead mic stand *behind* the drummer, with the mics pointing slightly toward the audience. Its sort of backwards from how its usually done, but it works really well. You will not need the para EQ if you set the condensers in this way.


I doubt I would have thought of it.

It's now in the Bose L1® Encyclopedia, FAQ and wiki

In with our other notes about Drums. Here is the specific reference:
Overhead Condensers
Greetings ST,
Well, I have the Ytube video of the G'boro show where we used all of the suggestions bandied about. I think the sound and response speaks for itself. (It's too dark to see the setup, but the setup is just like the final sketch above)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkJN_wtQAU4


I may post this on a main topic page to get some views from the Bose community. They always are supportive.

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