Is it OK to use the PS1 powerstand as pre amps for recording without having the L1 loudspeaker attached ? I would like to try putting vocals in channel 1 & guitar in channel 2 using the presets then using the line outs to a mixer/recorder set up. Will this work or will it damage the Pas internal amps since no loudspeaker will be attached?

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You sure can use it like that if you want to. We've done some great recordings directly off the PS1. Check out how the Thaddeus Hogarth Band sounds using the Line OUTs and a couple nearby room mics. Awesome. I plan on talking a little more about recording methods in the coming weeks after a bit more experimenting.

To download, I suggest right-clicking the link below and selecting "Save Target As...". Open the file after the download is complete (advice is for a Windows-based PC using Microsoft Internet Explorer).

If it ain't slow... 9,314 KB, MP3


edit: update link location
I know this was discussed somewhere before, but: Does the line out signal carry the preset's e.q. settings, or is it a "flat" signal? It seems to me that dancingdogmuse wants to record the preset affected sounds of the PAS, but if the line-out signal is flat, it would be no benefit to use the PAS at all.
Frown I was hoping to record using the presets.Oh well so much for that idea.Thank you joeb for your reply and to ST for that link. I didn't see it when i was looking for info about recording.This forum is getting huge with all the different info and discussions.That was a great recording Kyle,sounded real good on my little laptop speakers.very clear and crisp.Great band too......
Kyle,

Wow, what a great performance! Thaddeus is a wonderful performer. Can you tell us about the equipment Thaddeus and the band used on this recording? There are some amazing sounds on that cut. Great recording, by the way. Gotta love the soccer ball. Big Grin

Larry
Steve, the last time I saw Thaddeus' band a few months ago, he was using the Blackstone Aplliances Mosfet Overdrive, which is a really great sounding dual overdrive in a very compact package.

And the wah was the Morley Steve Vai Bad Horsie model.

Hi, my name is Doug and I'm a gearaholic..
(admitting to the problem is the first step toward recovery)
Hi all, I hope to answer some questions about the recording. I'll ask Thaddeus and David Sparr to jump in here also. Maybe they can fill in any blanks.

David Sparr- Keys/Vox
Channel 1: Shure Beta 87A Mic, preset 17 (2.0), miking vocals
Channel 2: Feed from Yamaha S90 Keyboard

Thaddeus Hogarth- Lead Vox, Elect Guitar, Chromatic Harmonica
Channel 1: Shure Beta 87A Mic, preset 17 (2.0), miking Thaddeus’ vocals and harmonica
Channel 2: Shure SM57, preset 26 (2.0), miking his Groove Tubes Soul-O 30W guitar amp that was aimed off-stage. Thaddeus also using a pedal board with a Morley Wah and a distortion pedal (not certain on pedals)

Joey Scrima- Drums/Vox
Channel 1: Shure Beta 52a, preset 74 (2.0), miking the kick drum (small DW set)
Channel 2: Two Shure SM57’s wired differentially, preset 76 (2.0) One placed near high-hat/snare the other near ride and floor tom. Note: The engineer who did the rough mix that I posted here commented on how the diff mic configuration was maybe OK for live sound but not ideal for recording. The reason we have been using the differential Y-connector is to reduce the amount of low frequency bleed into the drum area mics.
Channle 3: Submixed Shure Beta 87A Mic

David Buda- Elec Bass/Vox
Channel 1: Shure Beta 87A Mic, preset 17 (2.0), miking vocals
Channel 2: Buda’s Padulla Electric Bass, direct using the preset he helped develop, preset 63 (2.0).

Both Joey and David are going Bass-Line OUT from their PS1s each into ½ of a power amp. This gives the drums 4 B1s and the bass 4 B1s. We found that to support the funk/soul/R&B style nicely.

Check out the wiring diagram for the live-recorded performance here.

David Sparr did the audio recording. He used a portable DAW (digital audio workstation) and fed the Line OUTs from each power stand into his input panel. In addition, he took the extra channels from the drum submix and both room mics which were placed on each side of the stage area.

The first file I posted above for “If it ain’t slow” was actually the incorrect one I wanted to show here. This version has some studio overdub on the backing vocals. I'll post the correct one below without studio overdub. Having Thaddeus’ permission to do so, I’m posting three rough mixes from the live performance. Enjoy!

If it ain't Slow...

The Long Goodbye

Perfect Love


edit - changed link locations of mp3 files
Obviously, I'm very late to the party. But since the Thaddeus Hogarth "Live at Bose" CD has recently been officially released, if any of you have any specific questions about the whole recording experience using the Bose PAS I'd be happy to chime in, as I was running the recording aspect of this project.

The fact that I also played keyboards during the whole process shows that it was pretty much a "hands-off" experience once I pressed the record button.

Anyway, glad to be up and running on the forum.

dls/littledog studios
Regarding recording through the PAS... seeing how the PAS is a COMPLETE set... start to end... it wouldn't be very useful to record with the presets since they are EQed to the PAS speakers. Since ALL speakers are voiced to some degree (regardless of how 'transparent' they claim to be) the sound you hear out of the PAS + preset will be different from the line out even if it came AFTER the presets... it might even sound worse.

Just to prove a point, try plugging in a guitar amp distortion straight to a mixer without going through a DI box or speaker emulator.
Actually you can argue both ways.

Rationale 1: Outputs should not include presets
That's basically the purist approach. You want the signal as "clean" as possible to do withit whatever you want, be it recording, front-of-the house feed in a large venue, some outboard FX box, etc.
That's also the "conventional" and what most user would expect.

Rationale 2: Outputs should include presets
The speaker is actually voiced in a way that it sounds as good as possible on recorded music. The presets compensate for the flavor and properties of different instruments and microphones, i.e. excessive proximity effect on close-up vocals, resonance of piezo-pickups etc.
So recording with presets gets a you a very good starting point and you should get to great sounding recording with a minimum amount of correction required.

Pick your poison Wink

Hilmar
quote:
Originally posted by Hilmar-at-Bose:
Actually you can argue both ways.

Rationale 2: Outputs should include presets
The speaker is actually voiced in a way that it sounds as good as possible on recorded music. The presets compensate for the flavor and properties of different instruments and microphones, i.e. excessive proximity effect on close-up vocals, resonance of piezo-pickups etc.
So recording with presets gets a you a very good starting point and you should get to great sounding recording with a minimum amount of correction required.

Hilmar


Ok, but wouldn't the sound coming out of the PAS speakers still vary slightly from a direct out even post-preset/eq? I mean, the effect of the 12 (or is it 24) drivers would likely have an effect on how we perceive the PAS to sound vs. a direct out, wouldn't it?

Of course that's splitting hairs as well... just the same... I'm sure people here would've wanted an option of pre-post eq/preset.

Is there anyway the presets can be emulated via eq on a mixer or multiband eq?
Well, a direct out doesn't any sound at all but just and electrical signal. To get sound out of a direct out, you still need to hhok it up to a speaker or headphone. The difference in sound between the recording and the real thing will depend heavily on how you play back the recording.

You could, off course, play back the recording through the L1 choosing preset 00 (for recorded music). In this case, option 2 would be give you the exact same thing, as the orginal live event.

You can emulate presets through outboard EQs but its not trivial since some presets have very high frequency resolution.
In the case of the Thaddeus Hogarth album, I recorded each direct output to a seperate track (via ProTools LE/002R/Mac laptop). I had no control over the actual mic placement, as this was done by the Bose engineers using their concept of how to get the best live sound for the concert in that particular room.

My only mic'ing contribution was to set up a spaced pair of omnis in the room - but at mixdown they contributed little to the band sound and were faded in and out in order to pick up audience applause in appropriate spots.

Given the idiosyncratic mic placements (and highly muffled drum kit) I did have to use a lot of processing at mixdown to get an acceptable recorded drum sound. Lead vox, keys, and guitar, on the other hand sounded pretty decent as raw tracks, although I still did a little bit to them as well.

The point is, that I wasn't even trying to get a "live-to-2-track" recording - and the ultimate sound on the CD has only a passing resemblance to the raw tracks. That's not to say it couldn't be done, but it would probably have required at the very least a seperate set of recording mics on the drum kit in this particular situation.
Hi David. Thanks for contributing to the forum! I agree with you. We've taken a slightly different approach to recording our shows recently.

The entire Berklee Series is being recorded directly from all the Line-OUTs through a small preamp to the Alesis HD24 digital HDD recorder. All of the inputs- keys, vocals, horns end up bring pretty clean. The only work needed would be on the drums. So folks know, we use two SM57s as differential area mics into one channel on the PS1. While it works great for amplified sound, it doesn't make a good track for the recording. Recently we've been using two Shure KSM109's in A-B miking configuration. This has proven to be a much better signal than the two differential area mics but I believe that we need to go further. The A-B mics are picking up much stage and "room" sound so I believe that we will need to consider a close multi-mic recording configuration on the drums.

I would like to say on closing that David, you did an awesome job with the CD!!
Hey,

I was just reading this thread. Can I use my MBox (which comes with protools software) to record and if so what's the configuration using the PAS as the source?

Note, the typical configuration is instrument/mic in channels 1 and 2, respectively, then MBox connects to Mac IBook via UBS connection.

I apologize in advance for not being a techee.

jima
Hi jima,

Is yours the original Mbox? Here's a picture of the back panel. You'll want to feed the PS1 Data Out jack to the SPDIF In of the Mbox. This will send a digital version of whatever is going to PS1 Inputs 1 & 2 out to your Mbox. You'll want to set your Pro Tools for 24 Bit, 48KHz. If you're also using PS1 Inputs 3 and/or 4, you could split those signals (via a direct box or y-cable) and feed them to the analog inputs of the Mbox...
Chuck....

Now, that's VERY interesting! Does the digital feed from the PAS separate the ch. 1 & 2 signals so that they can be placed onto separate tracks?

What about a system with more than one PAS? Is there a way to combine multiple digital feeds when feeding the recording software?

I'm almost, but not quite totally ignorant when it comes to recording, and I'd very much like to record my band...just get live takes into recording software, but with the ability to edit individual tracks. The learning curve is horribly steep, and interfaces with enough inputs are kind of expensive, or so it seems....

I've got two systems, with seven of the eight inputs in use. So...given the digital capability, four of those go out through the digital outputs (somehow), and the remaining three go first to the interface, then to the PAS (somehow) so we can perform. Does that make sense?

Thanks....
Hi Andrew,
quote:
Does the digital feed from the PAS separate the ch. 1 & 2 signals so that they can be placed onto separate tracks?
Yup. It's stereo SPDIF (Input 1 = left, Input 2 = right), so each goes to their own track...
quote:
Is there a way to combine multiple digital feeds when feeding the recording software?
That would be a function of the interface (sound card). I don't know of any with more than one stereo SPDIF input, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any...
quote:
four of those go out through the digital outputs (somehow), and the remaining three go first to the interface, then to the PAS (somehow) so we can perform. Does that make sense?
It's probably simpler to feed the signals into the PS1s first and then feed their outputs (or splits) to the interface...

Lots of reasonably affordable interfaces out there, many with enough inputs to cover your needs. FWIW, with a street price of about $400, I find the M-Audio Delta 1010 to be about the best bang for the buck...

'Hope this helps...
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
That would be a function of the interface (sound card). I don't know of any with more than one stereo SPDIF input, but that doesn't mean that there aren't any...


Maybe it's just me and my simplistic view of the world, but I find the majority of recording products very frustrating in terms of supplied I/O. Every time I want to do something really simple (like plug three microphones into a recording console), I can't do it. For example, most affordable consoles and interfaces only come with two phantom-powered mic inputs. To accomplish that really simple task I need to buy more gear and spend more money (mic preamps), just so I can simultaneously record our three microphones onto three separate tracks!

Now it's the same deal with the S/PDIF inputs. I did some Googling, and yeah, I can do it...with a digital patch bay costing many hundreds, or even thousands, of dollars. Sheesh.

quote:
It's probably simpler to feed the signals into the PS1s first and then feed their outputs (or splits) to the interface...


Yep, that would be simpler...if the PS1 featured outputs for channels 3 and 4! The PS1's patch and output capabilities only cover four of our seven signal sources. (More I/O frustration... Smile All I want for Christmas is a true four-channel PAS, with all four channels the same....)

Oh, well, it was a nice thought while it lasted.
Hi again,

I dug around some and found this. Here's an excerpt:
quote:
Under the "set-ups" menu, choose "hardware" to set the sync mode. Choose "internal" if you are recording an analog input from the microphone or line inputs. Choose "S/PDIF (RCA)" if you are recording via the coax SPDIF digital input. If you set the sync input to external, the digital input becomes active, and the analog inputs are disabled. Conversely, if the sync mode is set to "internal" one cannot record via the digital input. A green LED lights on the front of the M-Box when S/PDIF is the active input, and the M-Box is receiving sync.
Looks like you might be out of luck for simultaneous 4-track recording with the M-Box. Bummer. Again, if anyone knows otherwise, please chime in...
Actually, I think I found the gadget I'd need. It's by Presonus, called the Firebox. Eight inputs, all essentially the same (though if you turn on phantom power for one, you turn it on for three of the others too). Comes with Cubasse LE, works on the Mac (yay).

Six hundred clams at Musician's Friend, with a free microphone.

I'll bow out of this thread...it's getting confusing, since there are two separate conversations going on. Thanks for the tip about the Y connector.
Yes, firepod...my mistake.

We actually have access to a recording deck (Yamaha MX-8 minidisc), and will probably use that for a while. It's limited compared to a computer solution, but it ought to suffice. Too bad we haven't a clue how to make ourselves sound good through it....
quote:
Thanks for the tip about the Y connector.
You're welcome. Is that image BIG ENOUGH FOR YA? It kinda scares me every time I see it. 'Might just have to shrink it a little. Nahhh...
quote:
Too bad we haven't a clue how to make ourselves sound good through it...
Your humility tells me that by just playing (and maybe some proper gain-staging), it'll sound great!
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
quote:
...if the PS1 featured outputs for channels 3 and 4!
One of these for each channel will usually do the trick and without breaking the bank...


So Chuck,am I getting you right, if a guitarist's cord goes in one side, I could plug another in the other side, run it into a mixer/recorder, and his signal follows?

Hmmm...I never had a clue that those could work like that.
Hi Saxman7,
quote:
if a guitarist's cord goes in one side, I could plug another in the other side, run it into a mixer/recorder, and his signal follows?
Yup, it'll follow. It's still an unbalanced, instrument level signal. (If the recorder input is expecting balanced, line level, you might have a hard time getting enough gain.) There's also the possibility of a change in level and/or tone from loading down the guitar's pickups, due to a poor impedance match, though with most modern circuit designs this shouldn't be an issue...

You'll want to ensure that it's a mono y-adapter, with TS (tip/sleeve) connectors for all 3 points. All three tips are connected to each other, as are all three sleeves. I know - I'm no ST with the graphics gizmos, but think of the signal as flowing like this:
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
Hi Saxman7,
quote:
if a guitarist's cord goes in one side, I could plug another in the other side, run it into a mixer/recorder, and his signal follows?
Yup, it'll follow. It's still an unbalanced, instrument level signal. (If the recorder input is expecting balanced, line level, you might have a hard time getting enough gain.) There's also the possibility of a change in level and/or tone from loading down the guitar's pickups, due to a poor impedance match, though with most modern circuit designs this shouldn't be an issue...

You'll want to ensure that it's a mono y-adapter, with TS (tip/sleeve) connectors for all 3 points. All three tips are connected to each other, as are all three sleeves. I know - I'm no ST with the graphics gizmos, but think of the signal as flowing like this:


OK, thanks for the clarification...
So, that would make using this method for trying to record unreliable, if not impossible, due to low signal, yeah?

So, we're back to the dilemma of how to record what comes out of the PAS, right?

It appears that using even another separate mixer, and using the outs on that into a recorder (or to another pa system), won't work, for this same reason. Am I right in assuming therefore, that unless a balanced line level signal is being sent to ch.3&4, then nothing else plugged into those channels can be Y-ed out to an external recorder?

One more question: what is the best way to run out of a stereo md player, to take it from stereo to mono? Would it be best to Y the outs to a single mono plug (which it appears you are advising against). Or to run a mono cord from the headphone out? Will this provide the full recorded signal, summed to mono?
quote:
Originally posted by Saxman7:
...So, that would make using this method for trying to record unreliable, if not impossible, due to low signal...


If the trim (gain) setting on the PS/1 is low (e.g.: 8-10 o'clock when viewed from the back), that means you have a reasonably "hot" signal, and you shouldn't have any problems with feeding two inputs (the PS/1 channel and your recording device) from that one "sound-making" output (it makes almost no difference how you cable it).

If you normally have to run the trim high (e.g.: 2-4 o'clock when viewed from the back), then you *might* have some problems with paralleling another input (the recording device input). In that case it depends on both the "sound-making" electronics and the recording device input (impedance, cables, and all that other mumbo-jumbo).

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