Hello DJ Richard,

All XLR connections are balanced. All the 6.5 mm jacks (¼ inch) INPUT jacks for Channels 1/2/3/4 are Unbalanced Tip-Sleeve connections.

There is no particular advantage to using a stereo cable.
What about the pre-amp? Doesn't an XLR connection kick in the pre-amp while a 1/4" t/r does not? How about a 1/4" t/r/s into channel 1 or 2? Does that kick in the pre-amp or is it only an xlr connection?

What about the presets? Are the presets active before the pre-amp or after?
If your mixers line level is +4db (pro standard) and you go into input #1 or #2 xlr or 1/4 in the pas will apply another +4db and this in turn will give you a very hot signal.
Buy 2 xlr IMP pad # 20 and use them on the ends of your xlrs and it will bring you back to a 0db signal and you will be able to set your gains perfectly.
You will fall in love with this system all over again!
If you go into inputs #3 or #4 you will be fine but you loose input #57 and the clip lights.
I do the above and life is good.
quote:
What about the pre-amp? Doesn't an XLR connection kick in the pre-amp while a 1/4" t/r does not? How about a 1/4" t/r/s into channel 1 or 2? Does that kick in the pre-amp or is it only an xlr connection?
The preamps on Inputs 1 & 2 are active when using either XLR (balanced, mic level) or 1/4" (unbalanced, instrument/line level)...
quote:
Are the presets active before the pre-amp or after?
Presets are applied after the preamp stage...

'Hope this helps...
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
...The preamps on Inputs 1 & 2 are active when using either XLR (balanced, mic level) or 1/4" (unbalanced, instrument/line level)...


As I understand (and I think I've experienced!), while the preamp is used with both connections, the XLR connection has an additional (fixed) gain stage that is not used with 1/4" (6.5mm) connection.
I use 3 & 4 because I don't (as yet) have any application for the remote. It's just one more bit of equipment to plug in and pack down and I can eq from my laptop effectively. So if I understand correctly, the only loss to me in using 3 & 4 is the presets like 57 (which I don't like anyway) and the clip lights (which I'll seldom, if ever, see)?

Sounds like I'm better off just using inputs 3 & 4.
Hello DJ Richard,

You might want to pack that Remote with you, even if you don't normally use it.

If the Remote is *not* plugged in when you power up the System, the Powerstand runs as though the Remote is attached and all the controls are straight-up (12:00 o'clock).

This means that the Master volume is also at 12:00 o'clock.


So without the Remote attached you won't have access to the full power of the System.


Edit - see Hilmar's comments below.
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hello DJ Richard,

You might want to pack that Remote with you, even if you don't normally use it.

If the Remote is *not* plugged in when you power up the System, the Powerstand runs as though the Remote is attached and all the controls are straight-up (12:00 o'clock).

This means that the Master volume is also at 12:00 o'clock.

So without the Remote attached you won't have access to the full power of the System.


Not quite correct. If you do proper gain staging, the system will get to full output with all knobs at 12 o'clock.
Since proper gain staging is not trivial, we provide the extra gain to take up the slack if the input is not quite hot enough.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Logan - Auckland, New Zealand:
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
The preamps on Inputs 1 & 2 are active when using either XLR (balanced, mic level) or 1/4" (unbalanced, instrument/line level)...


Isn't the XLR connected to a specific MIC preamp?

Yes and no (how's that for an answer Wink?)
Both XLR and 1/4" input go through the same preamp but they see a little different conditioning before they get there.

The XLR connects to a is balanced low impedance input stage with a lot of gain. The 1/4" input is unbalanced, has about 20 dB less overall gain but a very high input impedance.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
Hilmar: Thank you for the validation. This is what I've been telling my customers all along however sometimes one needs a refresher.

Is it proper to state, that each mixer and style/type of inputs to the mixer needs to be evaluated on a case by case basis?
I am also confused. On another thread I explained the problems I had with my first night using the PAS. Suggestions from those in the know are that I should be running a DJ mixer into the JACK inputs, not XLR.

In simple speak, the mic preamp does not like the grunty high levels that come out of a DJ mixer?
quote:
Originally posted by double c deejays:
I am a little confused. I have been using XLR cables, coming from the outputs of my Mackie 1402 straight into channel 1 on both of my L1's. This is correct right??? Mike early mentioned I should be using some type of pad on the end of the cables??
Pat, your Mackie 1402 (and the 1202 & 1642) have a switch near the XLR outs that allows either 'Line' level or 'Mic' level output. As long as it's set to 'Mic', you can go straight into the PS1 Input 1 (or 2) without the need to pad it down first. Some (but not all) DJ mixing consoles have similar capability...

Anyone using a mixer that has only line-level outputs can connect via 1/4" (6.5mm) without a pad. If you want to run balanced lines (for longer runs and/or to reduce noise), connect via XLR, but you may need to pad the signal down with something like this...

Clear as mud?
quote:
Originally posted by Hilmar-at-Bose:

If you do proper gain staging, the system will get to full output with all knobs at 12 o'clock.
Since proper gain staging is not trivial, we provide the extra gain to take up the slack if the input is not quite hot enough.

Hilmar


Interesting, I don't recall seeing this info before.

Gain staging is certainly one of the most talked about and apparently the least understood of the issues that cause new users problems, and one of the most difficult to explain clearly.

I can't count the times I have started, and then deleted without posting, posts that say the same thing over again.

Maybe this is an issue that could use video to better illustrate the various possibilities. Perhaps it could be produced at Bose Headquarters and included as a DVD with new systems.

Just a thought, Oldghm
quote:
ok ...now i'm confused again
Sorry, Pat! Let me try to explain. With the mixer set to +4 and every previous stage of the mixer set properly (just below overload), you'll notice that the PS1 Trim control has to be at or near zero (all the way down) to prevent overloading the PS1 Input. (Sometimes even then it will overload, hence the need for a pad.) With the mixer set to 'Mic' and the same proper settings at previous mixer stages, you're sending a much lower-level signal out of the mixer and you'll be able to turn up the PS1 Trim control to an optimum setting where it might blink red only on the highest peaks...

In any audio system, best results are achieved when each and every stage is set optimally to allow the highest possible signal into that stage without overloading that stage. This gives us the best signal-to-noise ratio. When using just the PS1, there are only 3 stages - Trim, Channel Level and Master Level. When using a mixer before the PS1, it's a bit more complex in that we need to set each channel's trim, all channels' faders and the mixer's master output to optimum levels and then, with that optimized signal, we can set the 3 stages of the PS1 - first Trim, then Channel Level and finally Master (listening) Level. Better?
Chuck: Gadzooks!

If you plug in a mixer into channel 1. No Wired Remote connected. Mixer master out = 0. Line inputs = 0. Turn channel 1 trim level to, say, 12 0'clock. Loud hiss. Now what?

If you plug mixer into channel 1. No wired remote connected. Mixer master out = 0. Line inputs = 0. Channel 1 trim set at 0. No hiss. Now what?

If you plug in a mixer into channel 1. No Wired Remote connected. Mixer master out = 40%. Line inputs = 60%. Channel 1 trim set at 0, no hiss, excellent audio, controllable volume, no reds in the led. Now what?
Eskie, I was typing while you posted your request for "easy to understand wording". I hope that my last post didn't make things worse. I (and I'm sure many others) will work on a simple way to describe the not-so-simple job of optimizing up an audio system. (The PS1/L1/B1 is a system unto itself. Add an external mixer and, together with the PS1, we still have one system, but it's a bit more complex to get everything optimized. Not an insurmountable challenge, but one that requires some understanding of how the systems' components interact. Stay tuned...)
No problem Chuck, am eagerly awaiting the next instalment in your attempt at enlightening a technical dunce Wink
Mind you, a lot of this will become a lot easier to understand once I actually receive my 2 double systems. The delivery date keeps being put back Frown The latest info from Bose UK is that I'll receive it around April 8th.
The mixer I use is an Allen & Heath Xone 62. I've no idea whether A&H is popular in the US?
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
You might want to pack that Remote with you, even if you don't normally use it.

If the Remote is *not* plugged in when you power up the System, the Powerstand runs as though the Remote is attached and all the controls are straight-up (12:00 o'clock).

This means that the Master volume is also at 12:00 o'clock.

I always have the remote with me in the car, just in case. But... as I'm using inputs 3 & 4, the amplification is adjusted at the PS1 at the start of the night and the input is set for line level. The remote has no impact on inputs 3 & 4 right? so unless I am using 1 & 2, there's no reason to use the remote if I understand correctly.
Hi DJ Richard,

The Master Volume on the Remote determines controls the overall volume of the System (Channels 1/2/3/4).

Probably the easiest way to understand how it impacts the System is to plug it in and give it at go.
One last note for now - ST's post above refers to a great video where Steve shows us how to set up a signal on the PS1. We start with everything all the way down (not hearing anything from the loudspeaker) and we bring up each stage along the signal path in the proper order - first Trim, then Level and finally Master. The same holds true for the external mixer, except that the external mixer's Master isn't being (shouldn't be) used to set listening level, rather it's being used to sum all of the mixer's channels and send them out as hot as possible without clipping the mixer's output, usually somewhere around 0 VU on the mixer's output meter. Then that aggregate signal is sent to the PS1, where we start at the Trim, move on to the Level and finally adjust the Master for the desired listening level...

Again, please stay tuned. This is not as complicated as I'm making it seem...
Hi Eskie, Hi Chuck,

At the bottom of this post I've attached a clip from page 11 of the manual for the A&H Xone62 showing the levels of the various outputs.

quote:
Originally posted by Eskie:
No problem Chuck, am eagerly awaiting the next instalment in your attempt at enlightening a technical dunce Wink
Mind you, a lot of this will become a lot easier to understand once I actually receive my 2 double systems. The delivery date keeps being put back Frown The latest info from Bose UK is that I'll receive it around April 8th.
The mixer I use is an Allen & Heath Xone 62. I've no idea whether A&H is popular in the US?


Here's a link to the manual.
http://www.xone.co.uk/downloads/xone62ug_ap4145_4.pdf

and the clip from page 11.
quote:
Originally posted by Cap Capello:
Chuck: Gadzooks!

If you plug in a mixer into channel 1. No Wired Remote connected. Mixer master out = 0. Line inputs = 0. Turn channel 1 trim level to, say, 12 0'clock. Loud hiss. Now what?
---------------------------------------------

Start at the beginning. It is important to remember that proper gain staging starts with the sound source and works its way through the system, thus the PS1 input trim should not be turned up if the mixer output is still at 0.

---------------------------------------------

If you plug mixer into channel 1. No wired remote connected. Mixer master out = 0. Line inputs = 0. Channel 1 trim set at 0. No hiss. Now what?
---------------------------------------------

Same as above, Start at the beginning.
---------------------------------------------

If you plug in a mixer into channel 1. No Wired Remote connected. Mixer master out = 40%. Line inputs = 60%. Channel 1 trim set at 0, no hiss, excellent audio, controllable volume, no reds in the led. Now what?
-----------------------------------------------

DANCE!!!!!
quote:
If you plug in a mixer into channel 1. No Wired Remote connected. Mixer master out = 40%. Line inputs = 60%. Channel 1 trim set at 0, no hiss, excellent audio, controllable volume, no reds in the led. Now what?
-----------------------------------------------

DANCE!!!!!



Precisely!!!!! (here's a few more...!!!!!)
quote:
Originally posted by Chuck-at-Bose:
The same holds true for the external mixer, except that the external mixer's Master isn't being (shouldn't be) used to set listening level, rather it's being used to sum all of the mixer's channels and send them out as hot as possible without clipping the mixer's output, usually somewhere around 0 VU on the mixer's output meter. Then that aggregate signal is sent to the PS1, where we start at the Trim, move on to the Level and finally adjust the Master for the desired listening level...



Chuck, each post gets more clear and concise for those who understand the vocabulary. I agree with the above statement, but, I wonder. When working with a mixer, if all gain staging is done, and a good working volume has been achieved with the remote, do you think it is then alright to control the program material primarily with the "first in line" mixer?

In those instances where I have used a mixer I have had good results with this approach.

Oldghm
I trust you Cap and will follow the advise we spoke of,I just want to post as to how I have been setting up. I come from the outputs of the 1402 (which is set at +4) and go to channel 1 of the L1 (which is set at 57) I set my master volume at "U" (which is about 75%) and then adjust the volume throughout the evening with one of the channel sliders. I do not always use the remotes.

I have been very pleased with the sound and have never noticed the red lights coming on to indicate I am near clipping on the L1.
I experimented tonight with channels 1/2 and 3/4 and I couldn't really reproduce anywhere near the same sort of levels with 1 & 2. The sound through 3 & 4 has never been distorted for me and it's always sounded like there's ample headroom with the levels set to 4. That's been more than enough for the weddings and corporate events I've done so far and I have yet to see orange or red level LEDs on my mixer, so I'm not driving it hard. I never use the remote as I mentioned earlier.

Other than the clip lights and the ability to tweak the eq on the remote (I do this on my laptop), why would any DJ ever use channels 1 & 2 is what I can't understand.
I had issues using XLR inputs on 1/2 (as discussed on another thread. Tonight I plugged in some XLR to JACK adaptors, everything seems better on a basic home test.

I tried to do an a/b test between Ch1 and 2 then CH3 and 4. Personally I felt CH1/2 sounded slightly "fuller" than 3/4.

I have a nice big empty venue to truly test this system out later this week before my next gig. While I won't have a room full of people, I will be able to crank the unit to full levels and get a real test happening.

Apart from setting volume levels at power up, I'm still not sure I need the remote once I'm up and running. I can adjust the gains and 3 gain EQ on each individual channel of my DJ mixer. But - I'm keeping an open mind and waiting to see the explanation "coming soon".

Great thread guys, thanks for all the info.
Colleagues: It would be extremely helpful if, when posting your I/O choices and setting, you complete the scenario.

Are you using two L1s or one?

What mixer are you using (make & model)or a lap top?

What outputs are you using from you mixer (mixer XLR outs, T/R/S outs, T/S outs)?

What is your connecting cables (XLR-XLR, XLR-T/R/S, something else using adapters)?

Where are the settings on your mixer at your highest event max volume (master outs and individual channel outs)?

What Inputs are using on the PS1?

What are the input trim settings at max event loudness?

Are you using the remote?

What are the remote trim settings at max event loudness?

Only with all this information can a reader grasp precisely what is going on and how.

What might be mutually beneficial and fun for all (especially with time zone delays) is to have a roundtable chat using a versatile computer program called Skype.

It provides for direct instant communications (FREE) in a one-to-one or chat environment. It's worthy of a peek. If you have a web cam, it's more amazing. The service is FREE, not ads. no pop-ups, nothing computer invasive.

www.skype.com

My user name is "Cap Capello" for anyone who'd care to inquire.

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