RIVERS WEST, your compadres from Texas, spent our July 5th day off creating a recording of a few representative tunes through our Bose PAS setup.

Our DISCLAIMER:
Our intent with this project was to capture and present our live sound, and while we had no audience present, we were set up exactly the way we set up to perform live, and there are NO overdubs or additional tracks added. Plus, these are One Take tracks, singing WHILE we were playing, which is certainly very different than a normal recording session. Our goal was not perfection but rather realism.

Our SETUP:
Bose #1 - Ch1 is Vocals (1 singer), Ch2 is Acoustic Guitar - Line OUTS into a Behringer mixer
Bose #2 - Ch1 is Vocals (2 singers - simple XLR-Y-cable), Ch2 is Acoustic Guitar - Line OUTS to mixer
Bass - Gallien Krueger Backline 115 - Line Out to recording mixer (usually we run this direct out into Bose #2 Ch3)
(SORRY we just don't have Bose #3 for the bass :-)
Drums - kick, snare, hat, and a couple of tom/overhead mics into another Behringer mixer, and on into the main recording mixer
Guitars - no effects or pre-amps - Fishman electronics using Preset #20; guitar #2 uses the Roland GR-33 synth but only on the 3rd tune, a B-3 organ patch slightly blended in
Mix - no separate mixing recording engineer - just one of the players ran it...

We added a little reverb to the vocals, and mixed everything down to stereo, and ran that into a notebook PC's soundcard and into the little program Magix (I think).

This is the first time we've used this actual setup, and we learned as we went. We had a total of about 4 hours to work on this session, at least half the time was setup and teardown - probably just a couple of hours of actual recording. We're looking forward to next time! (what ELSE is new!)

We believe that our results here in fact DO reflect our live sound using the wonderful Bose systems.

So, all that being said, with apologies for the imperfections, and with respect to Todd, JT, and Restless Heart...

Here's Rivers West:

Rivers West Promo

Thanks, Mike
Original Post
I have to disagree, I don't like the sound quality of the recordings and especially don't care for the acoustic guitar sound. It may be the difference between recording direct from the mixing desk vs putting up a pair of mics in a room and recording the sound coming from the speakers.
I have quite a few audio samples on my website of live recordings I have made direct from the mixing console. The older ones were from a Yamaha MC series console and from 2003 and after were done on a Midas Venice.
Here is a direct link to a clip:
audio clip
There are more at my website. Everything from Flamenco to Celtic to Rock.
Authentic Audio
Robert L
Well Robert, I respect your right to your opinion, and would try to accept constructive criticism if offered, but I guess we'll just have to leave it at different tastes. I stand by our sound using the Bose PAS with some pride and feeling of accomplishment.

Your equipment list seems more traditional, and I saw no reference to the PAS products, unless I missed it.

No more discussion of this disagreement is needed in my opinion. Thank you for taking the time to listen.

Mike
The fiddle was played by Tony Marcus. The group, Cats and Jammers was a SF Bay area trio. They are no longer together as one of the members moved to L.A.
Looking over MRO's recording set up again I realized that the PAS really wasn't even much of a factor in the recording. They didn't actually record the sound that the PAS produced. Since they were taking the LINE OUT of the PAS they were bypassing the processing electronics in the PAS. I don't understand what the point was in even running the signal through the PAS. They may have gotten better results plugging right into the Behringer mixer. Personally I would scrap the Behringer.
If you need to use a mixer with the PAS I would lean towards an Allen and Heath or a Spirit/Soundcraft.
As far as the guitar sound, I have a hard time with the type of pick ups that completely alter the sound of the instrument. You can't tell me that those guitars sound like that when played acoustically.
And no, I don't own a PAS. I don't see how that is relevant to listening to an audio clip.
Robert L
Hey TMAN,

<<MRO, Have you tried placing mics in front of the PS1's to get their true "live" sound "to tape"? Thanks, tman>

Actually, we DID that, at an actual live performance, but overall it didn't sound a good as the direct outs. AND, getting a decent balance is very difficult that way.

(I hope everyone pardons me for having my heart-on-my-sleeve, but I just don't GET this criticism - I think the guitars sound fine, and very much like they sound to me live.)

I DO appreciate TMAN's inquiry, but man! All this brou-ha-ha with this other character makes me wish I'd never shared these recordings in the first place. Oh well...

THANKS! Mike

PS - Bose-Guys - is this true, that the Direct Outs do NOT have the presets, etc? How in the world can miking a speaker be better than using the D-O??? Thanks...
MRO - thank you for sharing your experiences and your music.

Josh (or anybody @Bose),

I understood that channels 1 and 2 will tolerate very high impedance inputs. (e.g. piezo-electric pickups). I also thought that some of the zingyness we sometimes associate with piezo-electric pickups was attributable to impedance mismatches with inputs on more standard line-inputs.

How am I doing so far?

Does the signal from line-outs (post trim only) get sent with the same high impedance?

I am assuming that by the time you get to the effect send, being post preset and preamp section, the impedance is more compatible with standard line inputs.

The point?

Would this be a benefit from recording from the insert points rather than the line-outs?

I think that to get a recording of the PAS (your instruments and voices through the PAS) - you have to record what is in the air, not in the wires.



quote:
Originally posted by Josh-at-Bose:
MRO,

I recently saw this post and just wanted to offer some assistance.

The "Line Out" on the PS1 Powerstand is not effected by the presets. It is post trim only. If you wanted, you may try using the insert as an output to what ever recording medium you are using. You would need to do a half insert on the PS1 and carry that to your recording device.

I hope this helps
Josh-at-Bose
My comments regarding the recordings were aimed only at the sound quality, not the musicianship or the performance. I thought the songs were played very well and the harmonies were impressive.
I am sure that the recording of the guitar was an accurate representation of how the guitar sounds when plugged in. My point was that the guitar will sound much different when played without any amplification. When using that type of pickup the guitar no longer sounds like an acoustic guitar. I have a personal preference for pickups that are more true to the sound of the instrument. When you sing through a microphone you want it to still sound like your voice, you wouldn't want it to completely change the timber and character.
It is important to understand that most Bose products use processing. In other words, there is some heavy EQing between the mixer and the power amps. The processing is needed to optimize the speaker system. However, you would never want to apply this processing to anything other than the Bose product it was made for. This is why you don't get the processing at the LINE OUTS. Believe me, you wouldn't want it.
The PAS is an adaption of the Bose MA12. The MA12 must be used with the Panaray Controller. The Panaray controller supplies the MA12 with the correct EQ. The PAS has this processing built-in to the power stand, after the LINE OUTS.
Unless you are going to put a mic in front of the PAS and record the sound that it produces, I would bypass the PAS altogether for recording purposes. Just plug your mics and guitars directly into your mixer.
I have to disagree with Josh's suggestion of half way inserting a plug into a jack. This just isn't a proper or professional way of doing things, especially if you are at a live performance.
Robert L
Allow me to jump into the fray! Smile

I have to agree with Robert in that the Acoustic Guitar sounds unnatural, but I would add that it may be the sound you're after and it's up to the musicians as to what sound to go for. So take or leave the critique.

FYI Robert, "half insert" means to the "first click" and not dangling precariously half way into the jack. The jack is made to perform that function.

I would also add that a live recording with a stereo mic out front is probably the best way to capture the performance. Forget the mixer. Too bad our band is still saving up for a PAS system, otherwise we'd be doing that and I'd have an example for you to hear!

Anyhoo, any chance you guys would be able to do another recording with some of these options?

Curt
ST,

I appreciate the questions. To be honest, depending on what you are trying to do, it is ok to use either the Line Out or the Insert method for recording. The question is, do you want the presets effecting the signal or do you just want a straight DI type of signal to tape?

This is where the choice comes in. There is also the ability to use the Data Out connection for digital interfaces. (Data In is not for use at this time)

There is no "correct" technique for recording, that's where your creativity comes in.

Josh-at-Bose Wink
MRO,

Criticism is part of performing. Don't ever let a critic make you not want to perform or in some way stifle your desire to create and share.

Robert L is obviously a pro sound tech. For the price of his Midas board you could buy several PAS units or a truck load of Behringer mixers but that doesn't make him the most tactful of forum contributors.

So Keep on playing, keep on growing in your craft, and keep on sharing it with others.

Oldghm
Curt
The insert send are before preset, EQ and master volume. It's only affected by the trim and the channel volume. The Line Out is only affected by the trim.
I'm not a big fan of the half-way insert method myself.
There is a workaround to avoid the "half-way" insert cable. If your handy with a soldering iron you can make a cable with one 1/4" TRS (tip ring sleeve, stereo) and one normal 1/4" (mono) plug. On the TRS end connect the tip and the ring together, then simply proceed like you would with an ordinary guitar cable (on both ends: wire shield goes to sleeve, and wire core goes to tip). The TRS end goes into the PS1 insert, the TS into the input of your effects unit. Be sure to label the cable properly.
If your not comfortable making a cable like this your self you can buy a regular "insert" cable, like this and cascade it with a TS "Y-cable", like this. This will give you the same thing. These cables come in different lengths, so you can choose what you need.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
Josh,

Thanks for your reply.


quote:
Originally posted by Josh-at-Bose:
ST,

I appreciate the questions. To be honest, depending on what you are trying to do, it is ok to use either the Line Out or the Insert method for recording. The question is, do you want the presets effecting the signal or do you just want a straight DI type of signal to tape?

This is where the choice comes in. There is also the ability to use the Data Out connection for digital interfaces. (Data In is not for use at this time)

There is no "correct" technique for recording, that's where your creativity comes in.

Josh-at-Bose Wink


I was curious about the impedance issue...
quote:
I understood that channels 1 and 2 will tolerate very high impedance inputs. (e.g. piezo-electric pickups). I also thought that some of the zingyness we sometimes associate with piezo-electric pickups was attributable to impedance mismatches with inputs on more standard line-inputs.

How am I doing so far?

Does the signal from line-outs (post trim only) get sent with the same high impedance?

I am assuming that by the time you get to the effect send, being post preset and preamp section, the impedance is more compatible with standard line inputs.



Thanks

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