L1® Compact - what do I need to add more sound (louder)

Hi,

I am very new to all this and this forum, it fact I only doing this on my daughters behalf. She has just started gigging and she's has the following setup , Shure SM58 mic , T1 tone match and two l1 compacts and an ipad for backing tracks.

We are really delighted with the L1 compacts and we are still working out the T1 settings but are a bit concerned that  they will not be loud enough for larger gigs.

We have had no complaints at the moment with social club gigs around 100 people including dancing.

Here music style for these sorts of gigs has to range from the 60's to some modern POP, all foot tapping stuff with the odd slow number.

The question I have , if we need more sound (louder) what would people recommend adding to her setup.

Should we purchase a L1 system or an F1 and if so should we ditch the compacts or use with the compacts.

 

 

Original Post

hey Craig...welcome to it..and sounds like you're a great Dad..supporting your young artist.  i guess it depends on the tracks she's playing over and how much "dance level" type stuff she's trying to cover. My initial guess , based on the info you've provided, is that maybe adding a small sub..ie something like the EV12" active sub...would help with the bottom thump within dance floor distance, and that would also reduce the load on the L1C so that you could actually work them a bit harder in the mid range.

but really, if you've got 2 of the L1c.. I'd not fret about coverage for her personal rig.. I'd go ahead and try various gigs...and when you finally find that "limit"  you'll know to simply tell the venue that they need to provide house audio etc..and she can use her Bose as her personal monitors at that point...keep her rig small, lightweight, all the things that we love about the compacts.  I've been working the L1c units for outdoor wedding work..guitar, vocals, keyboard, string quartets, etc...and of course precorded music..what I've found is what all audio guys know...outdoors simply requires more low end capabaility...but from a coverage standpoint I have been more than amazed at how the compacts throw..even with 100-200 bodies out there abosrbing the sound... indoors of course you're competing with people talking loudly over each other..and it's amazing what the human voice is capable of in some people (grin).

Thanks Carolina, I will check the ev12 out, but also thanks for the feedback, its bad enough that she has to worry about here performance, the last thing I what to do is add more pressure on her by worrying about her PA kit. We want her to be confident that its all working well and your feedback is very much appreciated. I am old engineer that knows nothing about music.

At the movement I am the roadie, but the plan is  for her to eventually set up her self, hence the l1 compacts and keeping her kit portable. 

exactly...for a young lady, or for an old guy like me (61yrs old)..the Bose make it possible to get great sound, fantastic coverage but keep the load-in so light and easy.  one of my daughters (she's 35)  is a DJ..gets ton of work...when she started out, I made some of my small PA available to her..now, small for us was mackie 450s tops and mackie 15 subs...perfect for wedding DJ work..never worry about having enough system..but for her by herself, that was way too much weight to load...so she was having to pay help or risk turning down some jobs.    We are currently auditioning various compact subs in those 12" marketing offerings..honestly she hasn't quite settled on one yet...but soon as she is happy with a pair of subs that can produce but be lightweight..then she's definitely ready to make the switch ful time to the bose units... I've seen other DJs come in with QSC etc and just crank the crud out of them to where they really don't sound that good, and many of the guests are ready to find the door...  my daughter has learned and had many compliments that quality sound doesn't have to be crushingly loud....proud of ya Pop..you're not only enabling your young lady, but you're creating great memories of you standing beside her in this adventure.. love hearing this stuff!

 

ET

If i purchase say a ev 12" sub what is the best way to connect a sub  to the l1c's. At the moment mic is connected ch1 on T1 , iPad ch4/5 on T1 , T1 master out to first l1c ch2 and then aux out to ch2 on the second l1c. Would I then use the aux out on the second l1c to connect to the sub, or do I do to the sub first from the T1.

 

 

sorry, I don't have/use the tone control module so there may be a great solution with that.  coming out of any of our standard analog mixersthere are a number of options..one thats an easy thing to commit one of the aux sends to the sub..that way you can crank the aux on your tracks channel for plenty of sub, but no need to do that on her vocal channel or guitar.

Nice to see parents supporting their kids dreams....so cool. 

I have all the gear everyone here is talking about and have used it all in lots of different venues. 

The compacts by themselves do not have enough low end for a gig with more than a few people (in my opinion).

If you are going to be buying additional gear like the EV or some other sub, you might as well upgrade to an L1 Type II. I use the B2 subs but could use my B1's in a small number of situations. I actually have two L1 Type IIs and use both when I do larger festivals. Even places that provide their own sound systems, I have in my contract that I use my own sound system. I can't tell you how many people tell me my system sound better than the bigger systems. (*I am talking about local sound companies, not the big boys...)

My recommendation is to sell the compacts buy an L1 Type II, get a B2 Bass cab and use your tone match mixer. Don't look back it will be the best investment in sound you will ever make. 

 

  

I like the feedback , but I have just spent £1800.00 on two l1c and t1 tonematch. Money does not grow on trees in Scotland although my 18 year old daughter things so😁😁

I really what to make the right move, hence the question, I take it that pa kit is an ever moving circle in that you never have the right gear. I am thinking  about buying the big l1 and keeping the l1c for smaller venues ...thoughts

Hi Craig,

The L1® Model II with T1® and B2 is your no regrets system. You won't find live performers here looking for ways to make it louder. By the time your daughter outgrows the L1® Model II, she should be performing in venues that have their own sound systems.

The Model II comes apart like the L1® Compact and the weights are approximately:

  • 16 pounds for each section of the Cylindrical Radiator®  
  • 25 pounds for the power stand (same as the L1 Compact)
  • 25 pounds for each B1 (bass modules), you can have up to, two
    or
    40 pounds for a B2 bass module



Image result for l1 model II with B2

It's easy to move around, set-up, tear-down, and store.

You will use the L1 Compact for your small shows (up 100 attentive or 40-50 noisy people). Above that you'll take the L1® Model II.

OR

You can use the L1® Model II for everything (there's no such thing as overkill because you can always turn it down).

But,  I'd keep the L1® Compact for the small shows and as a backup. Pros always have a backup plan.

Does that help?

ST

Hi Craig,

Craig posted:

ST,, so one l1 with b2 and ditch the L1® Compact l1c and use only for small gigs gifts.

That's what I do. You can use the T1® with both. Oh, and remember that balanced cable you ordered? You should be using that for the connection from the T1® to the L1® Compact anyway.  

There's a ToneMatch cable that came in the bottom of the box with the T1®. You will use that to connect to the L1® Model II.

ST

I agree with ST. Not only is it the smartest long term solution....the sound is unbelievable. One thing to really understand is that Dr. Bose was a genius and where this system shines is outdoors. Typical sound systems really suffer outdoors. No acoustic environment. But Bose systems create their own and therefore sound just as amazing outdoors as indoors. I realize its a bit more money....but I would pay three times as much as they cost to get this sound and my audiences ALL AGREE.

Hi all, 

Just to give you all an update , i made the jump and purchased an l1 model 2 but I went for the b1 ( mainly for size and weight), we have our first gig this weekend and the units don' arrive until tomorrow , just looking for a bit of advice as we won' have much time to play with them before going live , the question is do we need to do anything different with the t1 , backing tracks we will connect to ch 4/5 , mic to ch.1 and use the tonematch cable instead of master out to the l1c , do we need to change another settngs or can we use the same if still using the l1c's.

Quick setup and any advice would be good .

 

Hi Craig,

Craig posted:

Hi all, 

Just to give you all an update , i made the jump and purchased an l1 model 2 but I went for the b1 ( mainly for size and weight),

Congratulations!

we have our first gig this weekend and the units don' arrive until tomorrow , just looking for a bit of advice as we won' have much time to play with them before going live ,

Try to make time to do a dry run before you get to the gig.  That'll reduce the first-time-out jitters and reduce the possiblity of avoidable surprises.

the question is do we need to do anything different with the t1 ,

Nope.

If you are used to playing with your ears near the speaker array at the top if the L1 Compact, it may feel as though the highs are a little subdued (less strident) with the L1® Model II.  I would not change the settings on the T1®.  It should sound good out front.

backing tracks we will connect to ch 4/5 , mic to ch.1 and use the tonematch cable instead of master out to the l1c , do we need to change another settngs or can we use the same if still using the l1c's.

Quick setup and any advice would be good .

Connections look good as you described.

Have a great gig!

ST

JUST for the record..  Dr. Bose WAS a genius, but in building his company and surely initial technical projects, but he had nothing to do with the L1 product.

CLIFF HENDRICKSON was and is the Bose L1 product genius!

(Ken Jacobs was Cliff's administrator and corporate supporter within Bose.) 

Craig posted:

Hi all, 

Just to give you all an update , i made the jump and purchased an l1 model 2 but I went for the b1 ( mainly for size and weight), we have our first gig this weekend and the units don' arrive until tomorrow , just looking for a bit of advice as we won' have much time to play with them before going live , the question is do we need to do anything different with the t1 , backing tracks we will connect to ch 4/5 , mic to ch.1 and use the tonematch cable instead of master out to the l1c , do we need to change another settngs or can we use the same if still using the l1c's.

Quick setup and any advice would be good .

 

One of the issues I have from time to time with my setup is too much Bass. But I have the B2 so with the B1 that should not be an issue. But just be aware in some venues if you setup in a corner for example sometimes the bass does amplify. So just be aware and if you hear some low end feedback turn the bass frequencies down a little. 

Hi all, 

As I said before just received my l1 model 2 and did test with the t1 tonight.

My daughter is a bit of a perfectionist and was not 100% happy with the settings we use with the l1c , also we suffered alot of feedback. I am tone deaf but it sounded great to me so I could not really help her. She said the mic sounded a bit tinny. She uses some reverb and I am wondering if this is set wrong with the l1m2, can someone explain to a musical idiot (me) what the bright and mix settings do on the t1 , mix is at 40% and bright 50%, I am thinking the bright might be the cause

 

Craig

 

Hi Craig,

Craig posted:

Hi all, 

As I said before just received my l1 model 2 and did test with the t1 tonight.

My daughter is a bit of a perfectionist and was not 100% happy with the settings we use with the l1c , also we suffered alot of feedback. I am tone deaf but it sounded great to me so I could not really help her.

More feedback with L1® Model II than with the L1® Compact?

Hmmm, that's interesting. Generally, you can get reach more people (before feedback) with the L1® Model II than you can with the L1® Compact. This is because the L1® Model II has four times as many drivers (24) as the L1® Compact (6).

You may have had the overall volume up too high. It can take a little getting used-to. I find that I can run at a lower stage volume with the L1 Model II (lower than the L1® Compact) and reach more people.

She said the mic sounded a bit tinny. She uses some reverb and I am wondering if this is set wrong with the l1m2, can someone explain to a musical idiot (me) what the bright and mix settings do on the t1 , mix is at 40% and bright 50%, I am thinking the bright might be the cause

Craig

From your comments, I would start by reducing the Mix (start at 15%) and if that doesn't help, then turn down the Bright (try 40%). Experiment with different reverb types.

Here are some general notes.

Reverb

There are three settings:

Reverb Type, Mix and Bright

Reverb Type

The Reverb Type function allows you to select the type of reverb that is applied to all input channels. The decay time (Time) and balance (Bal) are adjustable. Balance controls the ratio of early-to-late reflections.

  1. Select Reverb Type with the T1 rotary selector.
  2. Press the Type button to display the list of reverbs:
    • Plate
      Creates the ambience of a typical studio plate reverb. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. Works well with guitars, horns, percussion instruments, and vocals.
      Small
      Creates the ambience of a small-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. Works well with guitars, horns, percussion instruments, and vocals.
      Medium
      Creates the ambience of a medium-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. Works well with guitars, horns, percussion instruments, and vocals.
      Large
      Creates the ambience of a large-sized space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. Works well with guitars, horns, percussion instruments, and vocals.
      Cavern
      Creates the ambience of an extremely large space. Features adjustable time and balance (ratio of early/later reflections) parameters. A unique and interesting reverb effect.
  3. Rotate the Type button to scroll through the reverb list and highlight the desired reverb type.
  4. Press the Type button to select.

Adding reverb

The Reverb function applies a user-adjustable amount of reverb to the selected channel.

To add reverb, press the CH Edit button for the channel you want to modify. Turn the Rotary Selector to Reverb.

  1. Rotate the Mix button to adjust the desired mix of dry signal to wet signal (reverb-processed).
  2. Rotate the Bright button to equalize the high frequencies of reverb applied to the selected channel.

Note: To bypass the Reverb effects, press the Mix button. Press it again to activate.

Source: T1® ToneMatch Mixer Reverb

Does that help?

ST

Hi All

Thanks for the info,

Just to give you all an update, when we tested the l1 m2 it was in my work and did have the volume up high as it's a big empty space. Yes we had feedback and it sounded tinny,   but when we went to the gig a busy medium size bar , the volume was only half way and the system sounded great , lots of complements about the sound, I was a bit worried I had waisted my money and not selected the right PA, but we where both really happy with the l1 and the setup is alot easier and quicker than two l1c , the only issue my daughter had was that the l1 was not really behind her as the stage area was really small so at times she could not hear herself, so we are thinking about using the l1c as a monitor , if we do should we position the l1c in front of my daughter like a standard monitor or directly behind her. 

Listen to me talking about monitors like I know what I am talking about 😁🤣😂

Craig 

Less is more when it comes to Reverb....Unless every song is a dramatic ballad...I would keep the reverb mix less than 20%. closer to 10% is my preference.

Even in large venues I rarely run the master vol above 10 O'clock.

Stand between the speaker and the mic. By this I mean, not to put the speaker directly behind you but just off to the side and behind you so you can stand between the speaker and the mic. I touch the mic when I setup and extend both arms and I can touch the speaker array. 

Here is a secret for everyone on this forum....I have been told that my vocals POP in my show. My Volume is not turned up louder than every thing else. I use compression. Comp 1.....turn it up so its pumping a little not a lot but crank up the makeup gain over 10...this is where you get the magic. That Bose compression is magic. 

Good Luck my friend.

Moon Dog

 

 

You could put the compact behind as a monitor BUT....since you are going through the trouble of now setting up two systems, you might as well treat the compact as a real monitor.

Remove the extensions and put the speaker in the unit. 

What I would do is put it in front of her off to the side a little and tip it up. (put something under the front like a block of foam or something). Now you can send an aux mix to the compact that is the exact mix of music and vocals that your daughter wants to hear. Likely more vocals and less music...

Have fun, be patient....its a never ending journey for audio perfection....none of us ever get there, but when you start getting close its amazing.

Moon Dog.

 

Hi moon dog ,

Thanks for the reply , but what do you mean with comp 1 and turn it up is this a setting in the t1 we currently use the nose gate to help with feedback , what does compression actual do , I will set up and test tomorrow night with my daughter.

Craig 

Hi All, not sure if anyone is still reading this post.

As I have said before I am not a sound man , but tonight my daughter and I have just realised how good the l1 m2 and l1c are. We turned up to a shared gig as was told you don't need ur gear just use mine ...........what a disaster. 10mins in to my daughter's performance I good see a look of dread , i ran again to the car pulled our a l1c  and used as a monitor, it helped , but the subs and caps where **** she sounded so muffled. Bose might not suit a rock band that can not sing , never again will I question.  our kit bose  all the way ...

Ps don't use a dj £500 pound kit when you have £3k sitting in the car.

Lesson learned .....

 

 

Hi Craig,

I'm sorry to hear about the rough gig. My L1® Compact lives in the car for occasions like you described.  And for the "you don't need ur gear just use mine" gigs,   I take the L1® Model II or L1® Compact, just in case.

It's good to hear from you again. Thanks for telling us about your latest adventure.

ST

we're kinda on the other end of this...as an audio rental company  we seldom send gear out without own tech...just because i don't trust folks not to blow up a rig...so when 2 dudes on a stool want to rent a rig and take it with them, we tend to send them out with old school Mackie 450s or QSC K12s   I guess it's cause the bose seem so small and lightweight..not to mention pricey, that I am protective of them... love using them when it's our hands on the faders but i tend to feel for the headroom a rig has and don't push it beyond it's functional limits...that said there is a young lady in our area that does her own guitar thing and she keeps a craigslist listing for renting her L1 for weddings etc for $300  but she includes delivery/setup for that.. i usually just refer folks to her for the small stuff and she hasn't had any problems .

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