L1 classic Vs L1 Model 1

Actually Adrian, my comments are not "targeted" to anyone in particular. I try to speak in a balanced manner to all who might come here for opinion. I don't have anger or feel the need to embellish my comments with words that are not permitted. I think that takes away from the validity of one's comments.

You are free to speak as you wish within certain guidelines that are not made by me, but I do appreciate the fact that those guidelines exist.

My concern with this recent exchange of opinion is that there seems to be an accusatory attitude suggesting untruth from Bose. I can't change your past experience with the different systems you have used. I don't know the extent of your experience or knowledge as it relates to sound. I do have a fair amount of personal experience with some of the people at Bose, and I trust and believe them.

I am including a link in this post, to articles in the wiki. If you have a genuine interest in the L1 and sound reinforcement in general you might go there and read about the History and development of the L1. I think it is very interesting and informative. It is a fairly long presentation and may take a commitment of hours to read it all, but in the end you will have a better understanding of all that went into bringing the L1 to the musicians.

No one denies that each of us have our own personal experience with the systems. What is contested is the conclusions that we come to when they are in stark contrast to the actual known test results being promoted by the designers and builders. It only takes one little tweak in eq, or a button pushed, or an unknown effect in place to change the results of a setup. In the field, under pressure, at gig time, is the worst time to come to a conclusion that someone is lying about their product.

O..
I could have sworn that I saw this: "Hi JJ, Smile"
Maybe I am the discrepant one.

WRT 'allowed' words, no one can, for it is not possible to, ban language. The reason being that language is only an aural version of a concept. If the concept remains, any sound can be made to represent it. As an illustration of my thesis and the ridiculous nature of censorship, I now declare to all and sundry that all future posts from me on this thread may include the word "<<...>>". That shall be equivalent to the worst cuss word that you can ever imagine.

Happy New Year and <<text removed as per the Terms of Service>> FREEDOM TO ALL.


Edit: Forum-Admin removed a deliberate contravention of the Terms of Service link at the bottom of every page.
Adrian Bartholomew.

When you joined the forum on December 28, 2012, you agreed to the terms of service - including this.

quote:
From the Terms of Service

3. Appropriate language shall be used at all times. Foul or degrading language will not be tolerated and may result in the removal of posts, topics or member privileges. This includes using @$#%* between letters or in representation of foul language.



The a link to the full Terms of Service is at the bottom right of every page on this forum.


Agreement to Terms of Service screen appears below.
Now for the rest of your comment:

Any sound man will attest to the use of his own ears even AFTER running a spectrum analysis of the room. Any pilot will attest to the use of his own judgement above any instrument or command from a tower (I say this because I am a pilot myself and know that we are given that power). Why? Because it makes sense. It is ridiculous to tell a customer, 'I don't care that it sounds bad to you, the instruments here say otherwise' - or - 'I have another idea that I believe will work but the tower gave me strict instructions, therefore we are all going to die'.

Furthermore, my original post should not be taken negatively by Bose for the simple reason that it superlatively endorses one of their own products above that of any competitor. In addition, it is purely because I trust the ears of Bose engineers that gives me reason to not believe that they cannot hear what I am hearing, or the hearing of other folk on this forum who share my opinion. Any other sound engineering company, and I would tend to agree with you. Not Bose.

So, in the end, seeing a spectroscope would not convince me. I know about the pitfalls and gotchas of pseudo A/B testing. I am an electronic hobbyist myself and have made some of my own guitar pedal gadgets. I am here to lend a voice to those who are as puzzled as I am and to join forces in seeking truth. I encourage Bose to come clean.
My attitude is not accusatory. My words are. I owe Bose nothing. Not even your positive 'attitude'. They owe me. I have sung praises about the L1 and have influenced many of my friends to purchase their product and now I feel not only betrayed but that I harmed my friends and my own reputation. And certainly, if I am about to purchase a $5,000 US speaker system, I <<text removed as per the terms of service>> will be as candid as I can be in order to garner as much truth to the product that my money will buy as I can. HEAR HEAR.


Edit: Forum-Admin removed text as per our Terms of Service link at the bottom of every page.
It is impossible. Censoring "$%^&*" with "*****", the same family of characters, only illustrates the folly. So I hereby decree that from now on, any misspelled word posted by me will be a cuss.

I am not doing this just to antagonize. Few will read my original post as disrespectful. I have an extensive vocabulary and a very strong academic command of my first language. I do not use cuss words in place of other words that I do not know how to use. I use them because they uniquely represent different subtle concepts in our society including humour and sarcasm.
One can disrespect readers here much more potently with 'legitimate' language (which I have no need to do). 'Disrespect' then fails as a proper raison d'être for the existence this forum's censorship.
Apart from which; the elephant in the room?
This post from Drumr was originally posted Sun December 30 2012 11:00 AM and lost during an edit/moderation event. Here it is recovered. Regrettably, it is not possible to put it back into the timeline in the postings from yesterday so I have inserted it into this post so that it appears in the sequence correctly.



quote:
Originally posted by Drumr:
quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm:
When the L1 was first being developed and brought to market Ken was the lead person in the "Live Music Technology Group". I feel certain that the information he relayed to this forum is a result of very extensive and precise testing. While he may not have done the testing personally, I am sure he would take personal responsibility for the accuracy and results as he has stated here.
Unless you have visited their (Bose's) development and testing facility or one similar to it, it would be hard to imagine the expertise and capabilities of the Bose engineers.


This is one reason some of us here, who have been with the L1 since its inception, tend to jump down your throat in a nice, or not so nice way. O is not bragging about our visit to Bose years ago, or using it to say we know more about the L1 than you do. But there certainly was something huge, eye opening, spiritual even, that happened to all of us when we met with the inventors and engineers of the L1 line of products and sat in meetings with them. There are no better, more knowledgeable, or more caring people than the Bose crew we knew. They care about us, about the state of live sound, and about volume.

Yes, they keep their secrets, but that is their right as a company to do so. They do not lie...they just don't tell us everything. We are left to discover and suss out problems as we encounter them. As it should be. This is why we defend it so staunchly when users say the Classic was more powerful, louder, less susceptible to feedback, or whatever.

So I just want to say that all the differences of opinion about how we hear the L1s are just that, opinion. No real truth about which L1 is in fact "better". Is the loudest one the best? We all have our preferences and uses, and that is all we have. No one knows the L1 better than it's creators.

In these past weeks, the discussions have been interesting, and I apologize for my anger when reading a lot of it. This emotion hits me hard, and has lead me to want to leave this forum, and maybe you would all be happy if I did. But I read too many claiming facts about L1s that do not exist, making accusations about Bose, so I stay. Discussion is healthy, and opinions are welcome, just be aware that they are only opinions.

Remember that there are a lot of people who read your opinions and think that they are hard facts. They are in reality, nothing more than gig reports that turn up problems with sound equipment...and there have always been problems with sound gear. At least now, we don't need racks and racks of gear to fix them. All we need is a brain, ears, and the ambition to make the L1 work for us. If that means putting it beside, or in front of us on occasion, rather than behind, okay, do it. But don't believe that doing so makes that the best method overall, for every case, because that is not true.

The whole point of the L1, in my opinion, is that the musician gets to experience playing in it's sound field. There is nothing like that in the world. No traditional PA has ever sounded and felt as good to me, on stage as an L1. You can only truly experience that, in the best possible way (IMO), when the system is at least a bit behind you. I will do whatever I have to do to make that work.







Original post that appeared here yesterday starts below the line.






Adrian Bartholomew,


quote:
Originally posted by Adrian Bartholomew:
It is impossible. Censoring "$%^&*" with "*****", the same family of characters, only illustrates the folly.

To be clearer about the intent of previous edits to your posts, the edits by Forum-Admin have been amended using "<<text removed as per the Terms of Service>>" to indicate why an edit was performed.
quote:



So I hereby decree that from now on, any misspelled word posted by me will be a cuss.



Any posts containing "any misspelled word posted by me will be a cuss." will not be published.

quote:


I am not doing this just to antagonize. Few will read my original post as disrespectful. I have an extensive vocabulary and a very strong academic command of my first language. I do not use cuss words in place of other words that I do not know how to use. I use them because they uniquely represent different subtle concepts in our society including humour and sarcasm.
One can disrespect readers here much more potently with 'legitimate' language (which I have no need to do). 'Disrespect' then fails as a proper raison d'être for the existence this forum's censorship.
Apart from which; the elephant in the room?



The Terms of Service to which you agreed are not open to debate because you agreed to them.
So Adrian,

Now to address a comment from above. "If" the Bose engineers were listening "at the same time and place as you were", perhaps they would hear the same thing, and maybe come to the same conclusion, or .... perhaps have an explanation for the anomaly.

In your first post you said the two gigs were "months" apart. Just last week minutes apart I setup two different scenes on my T1 with identical vocal settings. But they weren't the same. I had to switch back and forth several times before realizing that one scene had compression engaged on the vocal the other didn't. The digital mixer you have has several layers of eq and effects and even if you saved a scene, is it possible that it was altered at some point in between the two gigs?? Months is a while to remember exact details of various settings and what might have transpired.

You mentioned that your complaint was not about output, but tone. However part of your comment was directed at the absence of one 250 w amp.

On the subject of tone it has been stated here that considerable effort was made to voice the systems alike. I think that using the T1 across the different models shows that while they are not exactly the same they are so very close. For me personally, not enough difference to write home about. I have a Classic, Model II and a Compact setup in my rehearsal space as we speak. I can change from one to the other with very little or no eq or level changes. I will try later to reference the Bose comment with a link.

As I type this I wonder if your first experience was with a Classic that might not have had an update, which might have made a difference. Or if the tech originally set the system to a particular preset that you adjusted to and the Model II didn't have. Do you remember at the first use if you were connected to inputs with XLR?

There are so many variables that I find a conclusion impossible to come to after the fact.

O..

Adrian, I think the moderators have gone offline can we talk through PM?

edited to remove questions that Adrian and I answered offline.
quote:
But the difference in output is negligible and any difference in feedback susceptibility is more a product of the setup than the difference in the systems.


If we could get back to the topic at hand, the above statement (echoing what Ken had said) is the statement I'd like to zero in on. I have no doubt the expertise at Bose would blow my mind, and I have no doubt that people can find the opposite of what I found. BUT! It is precisely the amount of tweaking that I invested to address the feedback issues and still not be able to get the same gain before feedback that I now enjoy with the Model 1 that is the issue here. As I mentioned before, I worked with the zEQ, the parametric EQ, the tower placement, the mic angle, and made significant improvements to the Model 2's gain before feedback, but it still did not match the Model 1's gain before feedback, the latter of which needed little to no tweaking whatsoever.

I'm telling you, technical speak aside, the Model 1 (and I imagine the Classic) out of the box simply go louder without feeding back. Part of the beauty of the Model 1 is that you DON'T have to spend much time fussing with tower placement, mic placement, EQ, and volume control. In six years, 99% of the time, I can plug, crank, and go! In six gigs with the Model 2, I had to tweak, move, tweak, move, and still settle for a bit less gain than what I easily get with the Model 1. And on this note, I'd like to introduce a new factor that maybe didn't get enough attention:

Crowd absorption. I have NO doubt that Bose is 100% honest and accurate when they say the difference in output is negligible, and given an open space (as opposed to nearly reflecting walls as in a corner), I'm sure the susceptibility to feedback is also comparable across systems. But there is a common thread in the complaints that I and others have had: the crowd. The absorption of those sweet highs of the Model 2 by human bodies is a HUGE factor. For some reason (if you'll excuse me, I will not be attempting to give a technical explanation beyond saying "maybe it's the crossover frequency of the subs"), the Model 1 (and I imagine the Classic) is able to compete with rowdy singing, dancing, yelling, packed bodies directly in front of the tower. There is a "boom" to the Model 1 (with simply one B1) that a Model 2 (even with a B2) cannot match - at least, not after a half hour of tweaking that I tried. I'm no Bose engineer but I'm no hack. I've been playing and sound mixing for over 20 years now with enough systems to know a "plug and play" system when I get my hands and ears on one.

The Model 1 got the desired volume pretty much right out of the box. Can the Model 2 get to that volume without feeding back, given the right tweaking? I don't deny that it is certainly possible, especially since others (drumr, for instance) have stated that their Model 2 even had to be turned down to not drown out a Model 1. I'm sure there are factors contributing to this, but I don't doubt his experience. But neither should anyone doubt mine and Adrian's.

This is probably my last post for the rest of the year! (That gives you all a good 24 hours before you hear from me again!) Wink

Happy new year to all! And I look forward to another year of L1 domination!!! Thank you Bose for the best little PA in the world, thank you oldghm, drumr, ST, Nova, Adrian, and all who are sharing the love (even if it's tough love some times).

See y'all next year!!!
Hi JJ,

One reason answers are so ambiguous here is because of the variables. Over the years I have spent many hours in rehearsal with zero pressure on, to try and discover what triggers feedback in "my" setup and how to work around it without compromising "my" sound.

You have touched on several possible culprits that might have influenced your observations.

The Model II with it's articulated array, placed in a corner, will send more high frequency to the walls and by reflection, back to the stage center. Because the Model II has more highs radiating to the side, and because of the slight difference in crossover, one might eq differently to get the same results as with a Model I in the same performing position.

The Model I, on the other hand, by projecting the highs straight forward might result in an eq curve that is adjusted down a bit in the high range, because it is easier heard in the performing position.

The variables continue to mount as wall surfaces change, number of patrons, how close or what angle we might be standing at in relation to our L1.

I think for most performers, the difference between an eq that produces feedback, and one that doesn't, is minimal and easy to live with. The trick is discovering the exact pinpoint or trigger that starts the feedback. Is it highs on the vocal mic. Is it lows on a guitar. Can it be altered with a different mic, or less mics, as sometimes is the case. Do we truly need that last 1 or 2 dB of volume that started the feedback?

The patrons in a crowded bar will affect the results you get in the back of the room but not so much what you hear on stage directly from the speaker. Once that sound has left the speaker and is on it's journey around the venue it is treated and responds the same, no matter what speaker it came from. Or saying a different way, a crowd has the same affect on the sound from a Model I as it has on a Model II. As I say that, I realize that any difference, is a difference, so in the respect that the highs have a wider dispersion, they will be affected somewhat differently moving about the room, but that really is splitting hairs. It should be a better sound because those highs going direct to the heart of a crowded room from a Model I would not have the benefit of early wall reflections that make the sound linger a bit with room reverb.

Do you see how the many variables can change our perception and encourage us to come to a conclusion that is possibly unfounded?

I guess over the years the many doubts I have had about the L1 systems have been more or less proven to me to be operator error or inexperience on my part, even though I came to the L1 with many, many years of performing. There are times when just changing the angle of the mic by a few degrees makes the difference in being able to walk away from the mic and not be able to walk away from the mic.

If someone says, "The Model II didn't work for me, just too much feedback," and I say, "I just love my Model II, it works for me in every situation." Who is right? Are the systems responsible for the results we get? With all the variables inherent in the setup and operation of the systems, probably the greater variable is the user, him or her self. I sit in on a fairly regular basis with some pretty good musicians. I'm never totally happy with the way they Eq. They seem to work without a problem at all, yet I can't hear myself on their stage. Is it them? Or me?

I don't believe there is a definitive answer to the question, unless, you accept that the Bose engineers know the system they designed and developed. They have no reason to downgrade the quality, or suggest two systems are equal if they are not. Sometimes production changes are made for reasons beyond the thought of the end user. That doesn't mean someone is trying to mess with our head, it's business. Bose knows that reliability is an issue when selling a closed system. The last thing they need to do is scrimp to save a buck and have failures as a result.

The L1 is not a great panacea. It works great most of the time for most of the people, but there are occasions when it just doesn't fit.

So no real answer here, just food for thought.

O..
Hi Adrian,

I'm not aware of anything like this being available. The Classic has been out of production for several years now. I feel certain there is no testing going on that would include it.

You can visit and tour the facility at Framingham.

You might pose your question in the "Ask Bose" forum to get a direct response.

O..
quote:
Originally posted by musicnmotion:
Great point Jukebox Joe. And a point that has not been mentioned in this post. I trust and value all of the Bose engineers' findings and specs. But were those tests and findings done in a room filled with 300 people?


If you are truly interested in how this system was developed visit this link.

There is a complete written history of the development of the L1 along with pictures that tell a great story and give insight to the way a project becomes a remarkable commercial product.

O..
The following is an excerpt taken from the link posted above.
Cliff Henricksen is the inventor of the L1 system. these words are his,


Recollections from Cliff Henricksen of Tests

What follows is written by Cliff Henricksen about this era of testing with The Linemen.


So, with a crew to set up beforehand, we just showed up to play. I can clearly remember seeing our 6 systems set up behind the band when I walked onstage. There were these tall black stilettos that bore no resemblance to any speaker I ever used. And here I was, The Inventor, looking at this alien landscape behind our instruments and thinking “this is crazy; this will never work here”. Honest. This happened a lot. What I saw and what actually came out of all of them when we played was, heretofore, so far out of my experience that I doubted it for a long time. But when I sat down behind my instruments, brought up the gain and played a chord or a note, the whole world changed in an instant. I knew where I was, once again. I was back in our living room, back in magic music-land and I knew then, every time I played, that it would work great and that everyone in the band would hear it and know the same thing and that we would fall in love all over again with this great music we were playing and making together. It really took a while before this kind of experience went away for me. Not that I minded, because it thrills me to relive those times in this writing as it did at those beautiful moments. It’s like dreaming you could fly, then standing up in some field thinking “this will never happen” and then, like in the dream, really be flying. I can’t say I really bore or felt any great weight of responsibility for this increasingly more expensive and demanding project, like “I’m the inventor so if it doesn't work I’m a failure and have let my colleagues, especially Ken and Dr. Bose down…”. I never felt this. It always felt great and it always was more fun that I could imagine. But I did, for a long time and over the course of a whole bunch of tests with the band, look at this whacked-out system and feel a strange sense of doubt, only to have it turn to pure pleasure of being a musician the instant I heard the music.
The following is a picture of one of the first two A/B tests done with the L1 and conventional equipment.

The following link is to a picture of one of the first two A/B tests done with the L1 and conventional equipment. This link is picture only. By clicking on the link above you can read about this test.



¸¸

Click the picture to see it in context in the larger article, or follow this link to read the article from the beginning.

¸L1® Research Project History



Edit to render image directly within this post
This post from Drumr was originally posted Sun December 30 2012 11:00 AM and lost during an edit/moderation event. Here it is recovered. Regrettably, it is not possible to put it back into the timeline in the postings from yesterday but I have inserted it into another post from about the same time yesterday. You can see it within the context of posts from yesterday
quote:
Originally posted by Drumr:
quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm:
When the L1 was first being developed and brought to market Ken was the lead person in the "Live Music Technology Group". I feel certain that the information he relayed to this forum is a result of very extensive and precise testing. While he may not have done the testing personally, I am sure he would take personal responsibility for the accuracy and results as he has stated here.
Unless you have visited their (Bose's) development and testing facility or one similar to it, it would be hard to imagine the expertise and capabilities of the Bose engineers.


This is one reason some of us here, who have been with the L1 since its inception, tend to jump down your throat in a nice, or not so nice way. O is not bragging about our visit to Bose years ago, or using it to say we know more about the L1 than you do. But there certainly was something huge, eye opening, spiritual even, that happened to all of us when we met with the inventors and engineers of the L1 line of products and sat in meetings with them. There are no better, more knowledgeable, or more caring people than the Bose crew we knew. They care about us, about the state of live sound, and about volume.

Yes, they keep their secrets, but that is their right as a company to do so. They do not lie...they just don't tell us everything. We are left to discover and suss out problems as we encounter them. As it should be. This is why we defend it so staunchly when users say the Classic was more powerful, louder, less susceptible to feedback, or whatever.

So I just want to say that all the differences of opinion about how we hear the L1s are just that, opinion. No real truth about which L1 is in fact "better". Is the loudest one the best? We all have our preferences and uses, and that is all we have. No one knows the L1 better than it's creators.

In these past weeks, the discussions have been interesting, and I apologize for my anger when reading a lot of it. This emotion hits me hard, and has lead me to want to leave this forum, and maybe you would all be happy if I did. But I read too many claiming facts about L1s that do not exist, making accusations about Bose, so I stay. Discussion is healthy, and opinions are welcome, just be aware that they are only opinions.

Remember that there are a lot of people who read your opinions and think that they are hard facts. They are in reality, nothing more than gig reports that turn up problems with sound equipment...and there have always been problems with sound gear. At least now, we don't need racks and racks of gear to fix them. All we need is a brain, ears, and the ambition to make the L1 work for us. If that means putting it beside, or in front of us on occasion, rather than behind, okay, do it. But don't believe that doing so makes that the best method overall, for every case, because that is not true.

The whole point of the L1, in my opinion, is that the musician gets to experience playing in it's sound field. There is nothing like that in the world. No traditional PA has ever sounded and felt as good to me, on stage as an L1. You can only truly experience that, in the best possible way (IMO), when the system is at least a bit behind you. I will do whatever I have to do to make that work.
Happy New Year, all! I see there were quite a bit of additional posts to usher in the new year! I'd like to focus in on a couple of observations, and then beat the dead horse just a couple more times in the hopes that it will someday make a difference for the future generation of L1's.

First, I've noticed that emotions got heated up, but never reached the point of disrespect. Kudos to everyone! Second, I noticed that the focus somehow shifted from "Model X vs Model Y" to "Standard PA vs the Bose Approach", complete with a cool quote and some pics from the original testers. VERY cool!!! But also, very off topic! You're preaching to the choir! I don't see myself EVER going back to a standard PA. I'm too used to playing in its sound field, as oldghm mentioned.

Okay, niceties aside, let's get down to business! I've sold a lot of people on the power of the L1 at the gigs. But I personally know of THREE musicians now that played through a Model 2. One decided to buy it, the other two did not. The latter's complaints? It was too thin, fed back, and didn't have the horsepower of their standard PA (which it actually did, as their PA was not powerful at all).

Guys, I'm not bashing the company we love here, but believe me when I tell you, these other 2 guys might have felt differently had they tried a Model 1 instead of a Model 2. Remember, they heard my Model 1 and expected the same results. They are just not the same. And I'm no longer comfortable with the word "negligible" or the phrase "splitting hairs" to describe the difference between models. For starters, it takes but ONE decibel to make the difference in the back of a noisy room between "yup, I can hear it just fine" and "no, I can't really hear it that well". I don't know - or care! - what the measured decibel or high frequency cutoffs were, but they added up to two VERY different experiences.

As for "user setup", this is another phrase I now have contention with, and please remember, we're on the same side Bose-wise, just not model-wise! Wink Let's say it really IS a matter of a user setup. Let's say that in spite of all of my best efforts to get the gain before feedback I needed that I just didn't find the right combination of eq, mic and tower placement, or that I really didn't need that extra dB. By the end of one party, dancers had to get closer to the L1 to feel that the music was loud enough to dance and sing along to. My percussionist stepped out and concurred. The bodies were totally drowning out the sound. This was not splitting hairs! The Model 1 in the exact same gig did not have the problem. We did push it as loud as it would go until it fed back and then dialed back a bit, and the difference between models was NOT negligible!

But again, let's say that I just didn't find the right configuration to get the Model 2 to deliver what the Model 1 delivered in that corner that night. If that was the case, wouldn't that STILL be an argument for the older design? Isn't there something to be said about which system is more "plug and play"? The Model 2 - if you DON'T include a B2) is WAY more portable than the Model 1, so terms of loading and unloading, there's no contest. But in terms of sound, I've NEVER had to futz around with a Model 1 so much to get it loud at ANY gig.

I would give anything for anyone-at-bose, or anyone-on-this-forum, for that matter, to go with me to one of these crowded sports bars, stick a Model 1 and a Model 2 in the only corner you're allotted, and see which system can get the necessary volume to the dancing, drinking partiers in the back of the room the easiest, IF AT ALL. That's all I'm saying, guys. Let's not get bogged down with WHY Bose's tests have shown that this shouldn't be the case and let's focus on the FACT that there are quite a few of us out there that experienced the same thing, and that while we're not sound engineers (and actually some of us are!) we're not incompetent when it comes to sound either.

Now, in my OPINION, the Model 1 is the go-to product for any gig. I have a confidence with it that I did not get with the Model 2, and it wasn't for lack of significant and thorough testing. I feel like they can throw me into any crowded corner and my Model 1 will deliver, whereas the Model 2 may give me another night of fighting feedback. Again, my OPINION, but backed up by hard experience, which in NO way belittles or invalidates Bose's testing. But I too question as someone else did whether Bose conducted their tests in a loud, crowded venue with the L1 in a corner and/or on the same level as a hundred warm bodies.

Oldghm also asked whose opinion carried more weight, mine or Bose's. A fair question. And here's my answer: If anyone puts more weight in Bose's reports than in what they find in the real world for themselves, then more power to them. Keep tweaking until their statements match your experience. I may have been able to, if I had more than 6 gigs in 45 days. But I didn't. And I think it was more than enough testing. I know what I'm talking about, I know what I heard, the folks at the gig know what they heard, and no technical explanation will suffice. Unless someone can take a Model 2 to one of our rowdy beer joints, set it up next to my Model 1 and show me the magic combination, they will just have to pry my Model 1 from my hands when I'm called to play that great gig in the sky. Wink
Hi JJ,

Don't have a lot of time but let me just touch on a couple of points.

The reason for the introduction of the History here was to give insight into the development and testing of the L1. Sorry we don't have the same kind of written word and pictures for the continued development of the Model I and Model II, but I do know that the same type of very critical testing both in the lab and in live situations was done in similar A / B fashion to make sure they performed in a like manner.

Adrian and I talked in private and I think we agreed on some very real possibilities for the differences he experienced. When dealing with something in the past it is hard to be sure of every detail but there are many places where one could make a difference somewhat unnoticed when switching between the Classic, Model I and Model II weeks apart. Adrian had the help of a tech who came with the rented L1s, there is a very real possibility he was an unknown factor in the setup, as Adrian was unaware of all the features and differences between the Models.

Lets talk about your setup. It is possible that the setup in a corner makes it impossible to reach the same feedback free output with the Model II as with the Model I. It is possible that the size of the crowd and their standing / dancing position around the front of stage area makes a difference in what gets to the back of the room. There are many possibilities for the perception of very real differences, but none of this proves the differences are in the systems. That is the bone of contention here, and the only argument.

I say I trust the Bose engineers to tell us the truth. They know their systems and the test results, and have no reason to lie. I trust you, Adrian, and others to give us real world opinion on how the systems fared in your application. While the claim by Bose that the differences in output are akin to splitting hairs, the difference between your impressions based on real world use and the testing results is not measurable at all. It is a human perception subjected to the variable background of a rowdy nightclub. I think it was Steve-at-Bose who once told me my perception was my reality, but it might not be the same to someone else.

There is no effort, intention, or desire to discredit the impression or perception of anyone here who might perceive the differences you have talked about.

When you say no technical explanation will suffice, I assume you mean you are not going to change your mind no matter what information Bose might have. In effect that should be the end to this conversation, because there is no technical information to prove your contention.

Read the History, think about the timeline from idea to market and then tell me you don't believe that Bose is ever vigilant about making sure their products stand up to their claim. They spent 10 years developing this product. 10 years. Late 1993 to October 2003. What were you doing those 10 years?

As I read back through this I feel my writing style which is usually dry and to the point, might seem a little more pointed today. Please trust me that I mean all of it in the nicest way.

If we both make it to that great gig in the sky I will go head to head with you on my Model II!! Smile

O..
Nice one JJ.

I have never been fortunate enough to own a Model I and although I am very happy with my Model II's I am constantly fighting feedback at most venues that I have to play loud enough to dance to.

I don't necessarily blame the Model II's for this as it is usually down to the room/posision in the room that is the root of the problem .... I can't change the room but I could change the MII's (if I had that option)for something that may be less problematical in a bad room situation (M1 for example) and I can see how this could work.

In a relatively quiet venue with no punters pushed up close to the arrays or where the room has few bad reflective surfaces the MII's sound really sweet but I can understand why the MI's may be more tolerant at higher volumes even though they may not have the same width/spread.

I never suffered so many feedback problems with my old conventional PA but then again it didn't sound as good (even though it cost a lot more than the Bose system) so I have to play around the threshold at lively venues.

One other major factor in this is that I tend to have my mic level fairly high as I like to sing naturally and not in a 'forced' way, I concentrate on Tone rather than volume with my vocals and I know this another reason why it may happen with me and maybe not others in the same situation.

At the moment I do not filter out the problem frequencies as I have no means of doing this (I do own but do not use the T1) but am looking at the possibility of adding some Parametric EQ device or may even consider trying the T1's in the chain just for this purpose but that's just more gear to carry/setup. I have used a Feedback destroyer and also a BBE Driverack in the past both of which can deal with these problems but I was not really happy with the results. What I would like is a nice Graphic EQ but a good one is very expensive and not viable at the moment .... maybe next Christmas.

Please do not get the impression that this is a major issue but it can be very annoying for me, most of the time the punters are not even aware that I am having problems keeping everything sweet and that's what is really important.

Happy New Year everyone!
Im the classic guy that yesterday purchased a bose classic thinking it was the model 1 and in this forum realize he was screwed with an old item then resfing realize he got the best of all THE CLASSIC so whats the truth? Or theres no truth only different ears! So BUMP TO THIS INTERESTING THREAD
I prefer the tone of the Classic to a Model I, though some swear there is no difference.
To me, the Model 1 has a "hollow" sound to it.
But that could have been caused by placement, on the few times I used the M1.
(Our city owns a pair of them).

I had three Classic systems, before going Model II, They are all sold and still in operation!
ohhhhhh thats good to know....i must confess im ipress and I really expected less on the system..i want to know how to update im a musician but i want to sound fat an with the whole frequencies available,, i use keyboards drumming and vocals bass on left hand,, so how to start?
quote:
Originally posted by Drumr:
I prefer the tone of the Classic to a Model I, though some swear there is no difference.
To me, the Model 1 has a "hollow" sound to it.
But that could have been caused by placement, on the few times I used the M1.
(Our city owns a pair of them).

I had three Classic systems, before going Model II, They are all sold and still in operation!
I have not posted on here in a while as I have been using my 3 L1M2 with no issues, so much so, that I was about to list my 3 L1M1 Classics on eBay. After re-reading some of the old posts here, I am wondering if I should ever let them go? Smile But then I decide to use them for a gig, and the bulk of the PS1 just bums me out... Which is why I have not touched the Classics in a few years. But I must say - whether or not it is accurate just me ears playing tricks, I really do think that the Classics have more presence on the dance floor - and more penetration. I miss that penetration with the L1M2. And now I see the new F1 system out - and I am laughing, because they tweak the vertical dispersion, but what I really want tweaked is the horizontal. I want 180 degrees for the dinner music so I can fill the room with soft sound, and 75 degrees for the dancing so I only blast the dance floor. I wonder if I can mount the F1s sideways?
Hi OneManBand,

Interesting thought.

quote:
Originally posted by OneManBand:
but what I really want tweaked is the horizontal. I want 180 degrees for the dinner music so I can fill the room with soft sound, and 75 degrees for the dancing so I only blast the dance floor. I wonder if I can mount the F1s sideways?




About horizontal mounting - these U-Bracket has been announced but is not yet available for order.



That's going to suitable for fixed installations. I don't see this as a practical solution for portable work.

If mounted horizontally, I wonder how useful it would be though. In the straight position you would have only have coverage directly in front of it. And when you pushed it to the C position, you would have about 40° horizontal coverage. That's going to be a fairly narrow coverage.
Starvin posted:
Hey Robert
I'm glad you got your sound sorted out but I'm surprised that you found a difference in the two systems. A friend of mine has the same configuration as me L1/2B1/1 T1 only it’s a model 1 and I can't tell the difference. They are a rock band and he has lots of power to spare.
I think there may have been something wrong with the L1 modelI you had.
Rick

Robert is correct.  Vast difference if you are intimate with sound.  I refuse to buy anything but the Classics even with the lack of support now from Bose.  I have 2 and am looking for 2 more as we speak.

Phew, well I've made it through this whole thread!

A model 2 was never an option for me on price alone. I can only afford s/h.

I'm still learning my way around the L1 Model 1 but it seems fine so far.

I was after a second and had deliberately been avoiding the classics.

If nothing else, I have an open mind now. 

I'd happily buy a classic when the time comes.

I can compare the two knowing they keep their value if I decide top swap either.

Thanks for all the comments from both sides.

 

cheers.

Hello to all.... Read all threads....  Question from me is did bose change the slew rate, between. Classic and l1 ?  I like crest amps, and one of the reasons I'm told is they sound so clean because of the slew rate..... I think it means how fast the .p goes from 100 to 0.   It's now 2018 I have just purchased a pair of classics, 1st gen w 1 b1 for each.... literally used 7times....they were in the family... And a pair of l1's w 2 b1 per tower......  With less than 15 uses, so literally  new, l1 even had original boxes...... .I didn't k ow there were 2  configurations till I had all of them home....  My instant thought was classic  is a more versatile unit w 3 amps able to be used independant of l1 system, there for Classic is better.... Next thought is .more watts is  better capable of handling heavy/hard spikes. There for Classic is better.... Next is I can run 6 b1 on a classic amp unit, therefore classic is better.  I Intend to use as foh w/ a  Allen/Heath classic mix wizzard   classics up front with 2 b1 per side, And l1 system in back of room with 1 b1 per side. Using program music and live vocals for. Trace Adkins Tribute called. CHROME.... I'm planning to run foh wireless w using 4 Iem body packs. L/R front and back. (Follow)…..  DBX dual 31 at foh.  Sennheiser wireless 935... .monitors is done by Sennheiser IEM .    My concept is sound Inhansment, not sound reinforcement. Does any one see a problem with this concept?  I also so want to purchase 2 more classics and just try 8 b1 per side with all 4 sticks in foh.... By pure math alone the sticks have 24*2.5"= 60 inches of mid high vs my jbl Sr  2*12=24". Per cabnet, and the 8 b1 will have 80" of speaker to move vs my dual 18 grunds equaling 36" of speaker .movement.  meaning inches of speaker to move sound through the air.   Thanks. Matt

Just wanted to add that I believe the difference can be simply stated that it's not a difference of out put, but how the two models handle the Input. They other put out the same in db.... But the unit with more capacity handles the job with ease creating a warmer overall sound.. like William schatner in the battery commercial, just brushes off the task at hand.  Just my thought from many years of many different happy Hazzard systems..   best sound was always when over powered.  Think they used to call it useable headroom back in the day......

Just wanted to add that I believe the difference can be simply stated that it's not a difference of out put, but how the two models handle the Input. They other put out the same in db.... But the unit with more capacity handles the job with ease creating a warmer overall sound.. like William schatner in the battery commercial, just brushes off the task at hand.  Just my thought from many years of many different happy Hazzard systems..   best sound was always when over powered.  Think they used to call it useable headroom back in the day......

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