I tried out a friends L1 Classic with two B1's.
I was so impressed with the sound I bought what I thought and was led to believe the same system, but what I was sold was an L1 Model 1 with two B1's.
I had some problems with the sound fading (limiting) and you can read them here

set up for larger venues
only on further investigation did I realise that they have two different outputs ie; the classic gives a total of 750 watts where as the Model 1 gives a total of 500 watts.
There is supposed to be no difference in audible volume between both systems however I find that there is a remarkable increase in volume before the Classic system starts to limit.
I have now swapped the L1 Model 1 for the older Classic model and I am getting the results I longed for with no limiting.

Robert

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Hey Robert
I'm glad you got your sound sorted out but I'm surprised that you found a difference in the two systems. A friend of mine has the same configuration as me L1/2B1/1 T1 only it’s a model 1 and I can't tell the difference. They are a rock band and he has lots of power to spare.
I think there may have been something wrong with the L1 modelI you had.
Rick
Hi Robert,

I do not doubt you are hearing something.

The difference between 500 Watts and 750 Watts is 1.75 dB. This is barely audible, if we did nothing to improve the efficiency. But we did! We made up the difference through tweaking the impedance of the driver and a few other subtle adjustments in the power amps.

I was probably the most rigorous in making the engineering team prove to me that we were at parity with the Classic -- that any differences were negligible. I was completely convinced of this as were others on the team.

I don't know what's going on exactly in the setups you're comparing. But to resolve any difference, you're starting by splitting hairs (1.75 dB) and working to even more subtle differences given the gains we got in efficiency. Just setting up such an A/B is not trivial.

Anyway, I hope my explanation is at least of some help to you.

With best regards,

Ken
Hi Ken-at-Bose
thank you for your response.
I can only surmise that the L1 model 1 which I had was faulty and Sound Control Glasgow U.K. are going to get the Bose representative to check it out.
I can assure you that there is a considerable difference in the handling of both sysytems.
This was not only noticed by myself but by the audiences who did not even know that I had changed from one system to another.
The basic problem with the L1 model 1 was when a singer was singing a loud or fallsetto note and a chord was being played on the keyboards, the sound dropped by more than half returning to normal when the singer finished the note.
This does not happen when I use the Classic even though I am using the same gain settings on each Bose system and on my Yamaha 01V mixer.
I will be pleased if Sound Control inform me that the model 1 had a fault.

Robert
Quoting in a related discussion...

quote:
Originally posted by r ferrier:
my freind who is an entertainer had purchased a
L1 model 1, he plays variuos kekboards and sings
he,s been having limiter problems with his system. and after borrowing his freinds L1 classic his sound is perfect.he then took his L1 back to the shop and replaced it with the classic,his sound is perfect punchy and powerful.
He swears tha the Classic with its 3 AMPS is deffinetly more powerful in terms of volium handeling than the L1Model 1..

WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK?...

Im now having my doubts that the L1Model 1 is as powerful...AS the classic

i think they got it right FIRST TINME ROUND.



quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi r ferrier,

Is your friend Robert Wishart who wrote about this here?

L1 classic Vs L1 Model 1?



quote:
Originally posted by r ferrier:
yes..

so you must see my concern..
in also thinking of useing the new,M-10DX: 10-Channel mixer by EDIROL.Its digital+analog.

what do you think ST..



quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi rferrier

Let's discuss your mixer question in your other discussion about stereo L1s.

For this question about Robert's experiences, let's talk about that in Robert's discussion.

L1 classic Vs L1 Model 1?
Sound Control Glasgow U.K. (with a Bose representative) have now tested my Bose L1
MODEL 1 and couldn't find any fault.
I therefore now take issue with MIke-at-Bose's comment that I am "SPLITTING HAIRS" with the difference in audible volume between the CLASSIC and the MODEL 1. When I tried the CLASSIC, I had no problems whatsoever with the performance of this equipment. However when I purchased the MODEL 1 (using exactly the same settings on every piece of equipment) the compressor/limiter came into play causing an very noticable drop in volume).
I have no doubt that when on a test bench with compressed music being played through each system they will have the same audible qualities.
The difference is, in the real world ie; at a venue full of people talking, dancing, general background noise and the system producing a
full dynamic spectrum of sound from live keyboards, drum machine and multiple vocals, the CLASSIC will pruduce a much greater audible sound before the compressor/limiter starts to reduce the volume.
Mike-at-bose can produce all the technical data to prove me wrong but remember this, I didn't know that there was any difference in specification betwwen the MODEL 1 and the CLASSIC when I purchased it (in fact I thought I had purchased the CLASSIC model)therefore I
couldn't have had any preconceived ideas about it not performing as well and yet my regular audiences, the singers who work with me and I all noticed the difference in performance.
In conclusion.
My opinion is that the Bose L1 CLASSIC is a great product with superb sound quality, easily transported and reasonably priced and I am going
to purchase another one (although this may be difficult as I know this model is now out of production).
It would appear to me that Bose, like many other companies, produce a great product and then figure out how they can reduce production costs in order to increase profits.
My L1 CLASSIC 1 is performing perfectly but I would not purchase another MODEL 1.

Robert Wishart
Hi Robert,

First, an apology.

It was I who used the term "splitting hairs". I said "you're splitting hairs" and I realize now that it could be read as "You, Robert, are splitting hairs."

I did not mean it that way and I apologize for it.

I meant "When one considers the fact that the difference between 750 Watts and 500 Watts is only 1.75 dB, and then considers the fact that other changes were made in the Model I to narrow that already small audible difference, the differences between the Model I and Classic are indeed very small."

I should have taken more care in my language.

quote:
It would appear to me that Bose, like many other companies, produce a great product and then figure out how they can reduce production costs in order to increase profits.


It is true that we will always look for ways to reduce production costs but we will not do so at the expense of quality. I believe this is human nature. (A farmer who can grow the same crop for less cost will naturally want to do so.)

As to the subject of profit, I think Bose is unusual in this regard. Not one cent has ever been given to stockholders. We re-invest 100% of our earnings back into the company. Earnings at Bose are used solely to advance technology for the benefit of people.

In the case of the Model I we engineered it to have the same output at the Classic on average program material. I'm getting details of your test in Glasgow to see if I can learn something.

With best regards,

Ken
Hi Robert,

A few more things.

Mike-Z-at-Bose is calling the Bose specialist that was with you at Sound Control to get more detail on the tests you did there.

We feel a little like two boats passing in the night. We have four credible parties here (you, our UK Bose person, Sound Control, and our engineering group) that we think are describing two different things (at least that's our hypothesis) and we want to see if we can clarify things further.

In the meantime, I did go back and get a little more detail on the differences between the Model I and the Classic. The detail I'm about to provide doesn't change the conclusions we reached, but it does help supply additional detail.

The two amps in the Classic power stand that drive the two sections of the Classic Cylindrical Radiator speaker are capable of delivering 500 Watts, but because of the exact impedance of the speakers, they actually deliver 370 Watts.

In contrast, the single amplifier in the Model I power stand that drives both sections of the Model I Cylindrical Radiator speaker is capable of delivering 250 Watts and delivers the full 250 Watts when needed.

This amounts to a difference of 1.7 dB = 10 * Log (370/250).

(Note that in both the Classic and the Model I a separate 250 Watt amplifier is dedicated to powering one or two B1s.)

I realize that these further details do not resolve the different experiences being reported. I do feel, however, that they may provide some additional clarity to those that are interested in learning more.

With best regards,

Ken
quote:
In the interest of learning more, could you define "average program material"?


It's a little tricky.

Because by definition, average program material is unlike any actual program (unless you are averaging a sample of one which is non-sensical).

Average program material should have the properties (more on that in a minute) of an appropriate sampling of actual program material. For a live music speaker, that would mean signals from microphones and instruments.

The properties we try to consider are average spectrum, peak spectrum, something called crest factor (the difference between the average and the peak) duty cylce (how much is the signal on vs. off) and so on.

There are test signals that have the properties of average program material. We also use musical selections that are particularly representative. And finally, you have to throw all the analytical stuff away and do a lot of listening with real 3D musicians playing and singing.

I hope this helps.

Ken
Hi Robert,

We called our colleage at Bose UK, (Andy-at-Bose-UK here) to find out more about the test that was done.

Then we set up the test here in a very careful A/B using an A/B switch box that Bose manufactures for these internal tests.

An Audix OM-5 microphone was switched between Channel 1 input on the L1 Model 1 and the L1 Classic. Simultaneously a music signal was switched between Channel 3 on the L1 Model 1 and the L1 Classic.

We played the music at a modest level and then shouted into the microphone -- HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY! -- through one system. Then switched to the other system and so on. We also substituted pink noise for music and repeated.

Both systems were balanced to have the same volume levels on all signals.

Mike-Z-at-Bose, Bill-at-Bose and I all listened carefully and none of us could hear any difference in the way the two systems reacted. We could hear the limiter but it was almost identical on both systems. We did not hear differences in how the bass reacted. Frankly, we were straining to hear any differences at all: we heard some very very small spectral differences but none of them created any preferences.

For now, we're going to close this issue. That doesn't mean there's nothing going on. But we certainly can't find it and we've tried pretty hard. It may take a face to face meeting to set something up and see if we can hear what you are hearing.

I'm sorry we haven't been able to resolve the discrepancy in our experiences. At the same time, I am satisfied that the Model I and Classic perform with amazing similarity, which is what we were striving for.

With best regards,

Ken
Hi Guys,

Just a note to thank Ken and Mike for their investigations and a to add a little detail to what went on here in the UK. Robert's L1 model I was checked against another model I and the performance, including the point where the limiter kicked in seemed as identical as could be expected. I did hear the compression from the limiter and the unit did not seem that loud until I was told to turn down by the store manager upstairs Smile Thus, the beauty of the L1 approach..

I did my own tests between a 'classic' and model I and their were some very small sonic differences to my ears; or was I just looking to hear something that wasn't actually there?

One thing that does strike me is the sheer level of volume commonly used in the UK and how a L1 fits into this. Sometimes I think we all have to remember that the L1 is a personal amplifier and in bands, is designed to be used in multiples. The performance and design, including weight, take this into consideration.

Best wishes to all on the forum. Andy
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Steinberger:
Ken, is it remotely possible that a 240 volt power supply would make some difference as to where the limiter kicks in?


Hi Alan, I hope Ken won't mind if I answer for him.

Nope, thanks to the magic of digital signal processing the limiter kicks in at the same point on any continent (and power supply voltage).

Bill
Thanks for all your tests and work on this.

I have been using my L1 Classic for a few weeks now (six gigs per week) and it is working perfectly. Sometimes I am playing very loud and can't get the compression to kick in.
This definately wasn't the case with the model 1

Somethings are just a mystery!

If anyone can tell me where I can buy another L1 Classic in the U.K.I would be greatful.

Thanks
Robert
I had meant to post on the limiting issue I experienced with my Model 1, but never got around to it. So here's hoping it adds something to the discussion.

My experience was born from reading about background hiss in another post. I run a vocal mic, electric gtr, acoustic gtr and computer tracks via USB into a T1 into the Model 1,channel 3 set @ 3, no remote connected. I remembered reading that connecting the remote, thereby having the ability to control master volume at the amp, was useful in lowering hiss. So I hooked up the remote and lowered the master to about 4 and the hiss was considerably less. However when i started playing/singing with the unit set to produce about the same overall volume I was used to, I ran into the "ducking" Robert mentioned.

My solution was to go back to plan A with the remote removed and the amp running at it's 12:00 setting. The hiss is there, but I can live with it. Certainly no worse than the other trad systems I've had. Now, I play fairly loud and have used the system outdoors twice and have never heard a hint of limiting as it's set up now.

Question: Why would turning the amp down (and turning the T1 up) produce limiting at the amp? Distortion, maybe, but why limiting?
this thread is why i just bought my first L1system
and it is the classic. I have had 802II's for over a year now as well as other bose products. im expecting this one to be great as well. but im with you guys on this one. there is no replacement for cubic displacement. compare a crown macrotech amp to a crown cs or xls amp........HELLO!!!!!!!!
I understand the Bose guy's stand. i mean really what else are they going to say.
Hi Robert,

You have right, the Classic is the best.
No mater what they say, but the Model 2 (and the Model 1 too I guess) NOT works as well as the Classic.
Less weight-less power, I learned for 30 years ago.
I had a Classic and I changed that for a Model 2 which was a BIG mistake!
Not enough power when the people are getting close and I miss the remote control to make changes (treble, bass) quickly
which is complicated with the T1.
Now I´m trying to find a Classic.
Jan from Norway



quote:
Originally posted by Robert Wishart:
I tried out a friends L1 Classic with two B1's.
I was so impressed with the sound I bought what I thought and was led to believe the same system, but what I was sold was an L1 Model 1 with two B1's.
I had some problems with the sound fading (limiting) and you can read them here

set up for larger venues
only on further investigation did I realise that they have two different outputs ie; the classic gives a total of 750 watts where as the Model 1 gives a total of 500 watts.
There is supposed to be no difference in audible volume between both systems however I find that there is a remarkable increase in volume before the Classic system starts to limit.
I have now swapped the L1 Model 1 for the older Classic model and I am getting the results I longed for with no limiting.

Robert
It might be a matter of perception, maybe setup or the digital connection of the T1 to the MII.

I have been using my L1 MII, 2 B1's system for 86 gig's now at quite a few differing venues and I have no complaints.

The volume, distribution and acoustic balance are excellent.
The T1, with a little run through, to understand how it works, couldn't be easier.

Right there on my mic stand it is as convenient and easy to balance/adjust as anything. I'll admit, I took some time to go through the manual and try out various settings to get comfortable with it.
Hands down, it beats any Mackie or Behringer mixer I have used and the effects are very good.

I run my USB to channels 4 & 5 for summing, 2 wireless mic's on 1 & 2 and Guitar/Digitech VL4 on 3.
I have not experienced limiting issues or lack of sufficient volume, at gigs exceeding 200 people.

I have heard previous Classic systems, 2 by people who had them setup poorly and they sounded that way, and 1 that a fellow guitarist uses.
His sound is excellent, as are his tracks, talent and overall ability.

In fairness, I have not heard an L1 MI. I can see by the Classics and my MII, setup is a very big part of it.
If I were to go by the first 2 Classics and their very poor setup, with 1 B1, I would not have bought an L1 at all.

Thanks to the 45 day trial, my MII, 2 B1 setup was a keeper, after the first gig.
Hi Ken,

I`m using the Model 2 with the same Tonematch and 2 subs. at the very same pubs and bars.
I´m really wondering how the effectivity of the system cold be increased with 100 %.
By the start of the gig when the pub is almost empty there is not any differences in the sound compared with the Classic.
But when the crowd comes it feels like the Model 2 has not enough power.
I guess that there could be less problems when you are standing on a stage 1 meter above the people, but I´m generally standing on the floor and the Bose is placed beside me.
An other issue is the missing Remote Control that could be able to change the treble and bass instantly.
So I´m missing the Classic!

Kind regards
Jan
Hi Jan,

quote:
An other issue is the missing Remote Control that could be able to change the treble and bass instantly.


I just keep the T1® mounted on a microphone stand in front of me. If I needed to change the treble and bass instantly then I would select the channel where this was required and set the selector to zEQ.

Would that work for you?
Hi,
This is the way I´m doing, but I can´t play and sing and change all the channels as fast as I wold like to do.
That was really easy with the Remote Control to the Classic.
So I have to try to live with the Model 2 until I can buy a Classic.
And I´m trying hard, I found a dealer in Germany who may have the 3x 250 version.
After some discussions about what the differences about the Classic and the Model 1 are he wrote to me:
"The model 1 versions we received from the beginning on and which were sold to customers (and which are still available at Bose Germany parallel to the model 2 versions) are with Amp 1 Out, Amp 2 Out and a Bass B1 Out (which is marked in blue colour). This version is the one that gives 2 x 250 for the two radiators and additional 250 W for the subwoofer(s), so you can call it a "built in 3x250W channels ampflifier" or - as Bose USA does - "classic system".
Do you or anybody else know anything about that? I think there is a lot of confusions about the Model 1 and the Classic.
I mean my Classic also had that blue ring which I could not see on the US Classic models. Am I wrong?

Jan
Hello Jan,

All of the Classics had Amp1 Out, Amp2 Out and Amp3 Out. In the later versions of the Classic Amp3 Out had a blue ring around it. I think they started to do that some time in late 2005 or early 2006.

So if you see Amp1 Out and Amp2 Out - then you are looking at a Classic.

If there is no blue ring, then it is an early Classic - it could be as far back as 2003-2005. It may also have the version 1 Presets.

NOTE: The Classic came new with one year warranty on the electronic parts (Power Stand and Remote). The Classic is no longer in production.

The Model I (still in production) comes with a two year warranty on the electronic parts.

Your Model II also has a two year warranty on the Power Stand and T1®.

The Cylindrical Radiators (all models) and the B1 came with a five year warranty.

So please bear in mind that a Classic (if used) is almost certainly out of warranty on the Power Stand and the Remote.