L1 Model II

Let's talk about the L1® Portable Line Array Systems

Using proprietary Bose® technology, L1 systems combine  PA and monitors into a single, highly portable unit. The  loudspeaker can be positioned behind or to the side —and you hear what the audience hears.

Highly portable PA and monitor combined for solo performers, DJs and general-purpose use. Fixed vertical control with 180° horizontal coverage Reduced vulnerability to feedback.

Three systems to choose from (Compact, Model 1S, Model II)
Two passive bass module options (B1 or B2)
Consistent coverage and tonal balance, portability and easy setup.

Thanks Mary,

My guitar style is such that I play bass lines and make a lot of rhythmic contact with the guitar top.

I have never felt that I reproduced that sound just as I wanted to hear it with the B1s. In the back of my mind I'm thinking that the EQ curves for the B2 might be more about content than power, if that makes sense.

I'll be anxious to hear from any acoustic groups that use the B2.

O..
quote:
I have never felt that I reproduced that sound just as I wanted to hear it with the B1s. In the back of my mind I'm thinking that the EQ curves for the B2 might be more about content than power, if that makes sense.


I know what you're saying. The B1 has a lot of sub-bass that I can't use. The Compact has a warmer low end that works well for acoustic use. Maybe the B2 will have more of that warmth with the 10's.
Questions...
1)What are my options for upgrading firmware if I want to buy a B2 for my L1 mII system and I don't use or own a Tonematch?

2)After the firmware upgrade, will there be any change to the B1 sound?

3)Impressions/Opinions...I am assuming that the B2 sounds about like two B1's. Has anyone compared this? Raising the audience number isn't really a great description.
Still 40hz ?
Hi macmike100

quote:
Originally posted by macmike100:
Questions...
1)What are my options for upgrading firmware if I want to buy a B2 for my L1 mII system and I don't use or own a Tonematch?


Posted yesterday:
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Model II and no T1® but looking at a B2 bass module?

I just spoke with L1® Support.

If you have a Model II and want to update your firmware so that you can run the Bose B2 bass module with full support for all three modes, you can take your Power Stand to Guitar Center or a Bose retail store and get it done.

Call ahead to make sure that they are expecting you.


Note - this is something they started rolling out yesterday so I wouldn't expect the message to have reached everyone involved. That's why I suggested calling ahead.
quote:


2)After the firmware upgrade, will there be any change to the B1 sound?

From what I understand... no.
The firmware update lets the Model II Power Stand recognize the switch positions on the B2 and adds some EQ processing depending on the settings on the B2. The internal workings with the B1, as I understand it, are unchanged.
quote:

3)Impressions/Opinions...I am assuming that the B2 sounds about like two B1's. Has anyone compared this? Raising the audience number isn't really a great description.
Still 40hz ?


I've heard it. I think that it's a reasonable comparison. One B2 sounds very similar to me, to two B1s. I might hazard that the B2 sounds deeper to me, but talking about tone is not my strong suit.

Does that help?
O. you are correct in your numbers but I think those sorts of numbers can be deceiving, I think you would have to really be in a situation to say OK it's this loud, what does double the perceived volume actually feel/sound like. I think ultimately we are on the same page, I get the sense that numbers mean less to you than what the unit can do in an actual room. I'm of the same mind but many people talk numbers and I think those reading should be pushed to try to think beyond the numbers as we tend to do.
As far as the weight/size of the unit, for me anyway I think it makes more sense, it's actually pretty comfortable to carry, takes up less space in the car than 2 B1s. I would rather carry one of these in one hand than 2 B1s in two hands. I think because of the shape of it. I'm only 5' 10" and for me just standing up with my arm extended gets the unit comfortably off the ground. Maybe if I was in the 5'2" range and it meant bending my arm to get it off the ground it might be a lot less comfortable. So that's something to consider for shorter people but ultimately in true Bose fashion they are giving as much as they can in as compact a form as they can.
When I state that it takes less room in the car, I can't really speak to the actual cubic volume of space of 1 B2 vs 2 B1s, but the fact that I can stand it up in the back of my Mazda 3 (hatch) with the back seats folded down it's more manageable than 2 B1s. Certainly if, I can realistically get the performance of 4 B1s out of 2 B2s, It's a huge space saver in the car. Huge time saver, carry 2 of these over 8 B1s, only 2 connections vs 8 and no hooking up the packlites. That theory remains to be seen but if the claims are accurate its a massive convenience.
My thoughts in regards to the L1s and that market for that? Not sure, I don't think there is a lot saved other than budget although with a B2 and a T1 (not sure the savings over say a Model II/T1/B1) it would pack a pretty nice punch.
It's too bad that they didn't make the radiators interchangeable with the Model II. We play this one club and there is a fireplace/hearth right beside the "stage" area. The hearth would hold the model II but it's a little too high off the ground to fit. Being able to put the blank in the bottom position on a model 2 and save the 4.6" would be helpful in a room like that and maybe other rooms as well. As the room is fairly small the top radiator if would be enough, especially combined with a B2.
I'm not really sure but maybe new entries into the market? I can't see any Model II owners making the switch. Time will tell I guess when all the new L1s owners join the forums we can ask.
OK most my of my questions were answered when I saw the next two pages of the post.

I may not get one right away but I definitely want to get that firmware update so I'll be ready when I do.

I don't use or own a Tonematch...You say Guitar Center might be doing the update? Will there be a charge $ for this? Anyone know how much?
quote:
Originally posted by Tom Munch:
The original concept of having a modular system that was easy to carry seems to have disappeared.


As I was looking at the photos of all three systems, The Compact, the 1S and the Model 2 side by side, this quote from Tom summed up something I was pondering.

Has anyone from Bose addressed the idea of one modular system that is expandable and contractable based on the venue/audience size?

I have both the Compact and the Model 2. Both systems have a place in my touring life and I love many things about both. I'm sure there are shows where a Model 1S would perfectly fit the bill. As much as I like having the "perfect" system for each show, I'm not going to buy and lug around another L1 system!

Why not something that can go from the table top position of the collapsed Compact all the way to a Model 2 just by adding things?

Bose is clearly going that way in the bass department (1 B1, expandable to 2 B1's, more with a Packlite and now the B2.) Why not do the same in the in the line array department?

I set up today at noon for a show this evening. I set up my Model 2 with 2 B1's and I'm sure that's overkill. I could maybe get by with the Compact but I'm playing my Porchboard and want the low end support of the B1's.

This is where it would be nice to use just the right amount of one system for the show instead of having to buy/carry around three different systems if I want some flexibility/adaptability.

Matt
quote:
Originally posted by open-road-matt:

As I was looking at the photos of all three systems, The Compact, the 1S and the Model 2 side by side, this quote from Tom summed up something I was pondering.

Has anyone from Bose addressed the idea of one modular system that is expandable and contractable based on the venue/audience size?

I have both the Compact and the Model 2. Both systems have a place in my touring life and I love many things about both. I'm sure there are shows where a Model 1S would perfectly fit the bill. As much as I like having the "perfect" system for each show, I'm not going to buy and lug around another L1 system!

Why not something that can go from the table top position of the collapsed Compact all the way to a Model 2 just by adding things?

Bose is clearly going that way in the bass department (1 B1, expandable to 2 B1's, more with a Packlite and now the B2.) Why not do the same in the in the line array department?

I set up today at noon for a show this evening. I set up my Model 2 with 2 B1's and I'm sure that's overkill. I could maybe get by with the Compact but I'm playing my Porchboard and want the low end support of the B1's.

This is where it would be nice to use just the right amount of one system for the show instead of having to buy/carry around three different systems if I want some flexibility/adaptability.

Matt


I imagine a system like the Model II, with the speaker / extension of the 1S made available, and the Compact 2 channel mixer built in, with a ToneMatch port. If the Top speaker could serve both uses and all the differences be made up in DSP, that would be even better.

It seems that Bose has something against, flexibility / adaptability / versatility.

O..
Hi Litesnsirens,

quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
...

When I state that it takes less room in the car, I can't really speak to the actual cubic volume of space of 1 B2 vs 2 B1s, but the fact that I can stand it up in the back of my Mazda 3 (hatch) with the back seats folded down it's more manageable than 2 B1s. Certainly if, I can realistically get the performance of 4 B1s out of 2 B2s, It's a huge space saver in the car. Huge time saver, carry 2 of these over 8 B1s, only 2 connections vs 8 and no hooking up the packlites. That theory remains to be seen but if the claims are accurate its a massive convenience.


Here are the published dimensions:

Bass modules
B1 bass 15”H x 10 ¼”W x 17 ¾”D 25.1 lb (11.4 kg) module (38.0 cm x 26.0 cm x 45.0 cm)

B2 bass 23.4”H x 13.31”W x 18.9”D 45 lb (20.41 kg) module (59.4 cm x 33.8 cm x 48 cm)

1 B1 is 2729.0625 cu inches
2 B1 is 5458.125 cu inches

1 B2 is 5886.4806 cu inches

If I could carry 45 pounds with one hand as easily as 25 pounds each in two hands, I would probably find that the single B2 was a good choice for moving around even though it is a little bigger than two B1s. It would certainly not shift around as much once I actually got it into the back seat of the car.

edit: clarity and math.
Hi macmike,

When I was talking to L1® Support about this yesterday, I came away with the impression that there would be no charge for this.

You can call L1® Support for details on this:

Call Bose® Product & Technical Support at (877) 335-2673 (U.S. and Canada only)
Monday-Friday: 8:30 AM - 9:00 PM ET
Saturday 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM ET
Currently no support available on Sunday


quote:
Originally posted by macmike100:
OK most my of my questions were answered when I saw the next two pages of the post.

I may not get one right away but I definitely want to get that firmware update so I'll be ready when I do.

I don't use or own a Tonematch...You say Guitar Center might be doing the update? Will there be a charge $ for this? Anyone know how much?
Hi Litesnsirens,

quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
O. you are correct in your numbers but I think those sorts of numbers can be deceiving, I think you would have to really be in a situation to say OK it's this loud, what does double the perceived volume actually feel/sound like. I think ultimately we are on the same page, I get the sense that numbers mean less to you than what the unit can do in an actual room. I'm of the same mind but many people talk numbers and I think those reading should be pushed to try to think beyond the numbers as we tend to do.

I think I'm on the same page as you and Oldgham.

The problem with looking at the ratings for sound pressure level, is that these tell you how loud the systems are at 1 meter, and although it is not specified, I hope it's a reasonable assumption that the measurement was taken on-axis.

I think it would be more telling if we could take measurements at 5, 10, 20, 40 meters on axis and at various degrees off axis too.

But even those numbers would not tell you what to expect when you set up in a new room.
I am thinking seriously of upgrading from the Compact, but as a solo guitar player/singer in small to medium size venues I am not tempted by the B2, however I thought the 1s with B1 sounded great at my local GC yesterday. For all you good techies here, is there anything to suggest that the new 1s with a B1 will have better gain before feedback than the Compact? One environment I play is loud, lots of glass, and I battle a bit with feedback through the mic. So to ask the question another way, if "x" db is pushing my Compact to the point of feedback, any reason to think that the 1s could go to "x" or higher without a feedback issue?
Hi Bob,

quote:
Originally posted by BobKinSTL:
I am thinking seriously of upgrading from the Compact, but as a solo guitar player/singer in small to medium size venues I am not tempted by the B2, however I thought the 1s with B1 sounded great at my local GC yesterday. For all you good techies here, is there anything to suggest that the new 1s with a B1 will have better gain before feedback than the Compact? One environment I play is loud, lots of glass, and I battle a bit with feedback through the mic. So to ask the question another way, if "x" db is pushing my Compact to the point of feedback, any reason to think that the 1s could go to "x" or higher without a feedback issue?


I haven't had an opportunity to test this out with the Model 1S in a live situation, but do I know that the Model II is better than the Compact in this way: I get better performance with the Model II than the Compact specifically with respect to what I'll call projection-before-feedback.

I made up my own term here "projection-before-feedback" because I am talking about how well I can project into a room before feedback becomes an issue.

The traditional term "gain-before-feedback" isn't particularly helpful here because the REAL issue as I see it, is not how much I can amplify my sound (gain) before feedback. The issue is how well can I project into a room before feedback.

Projecting out say... 50 feet in a crowded room, I find that I have to run the Compact louder than the Model II to get the job done, and at that point, with the Compact, I have to be much more careful about feedback than with the Model II. I'm not trying for more gain-before-feedback, I'm concerned with my ability to project into the room before feedback. Since I can run the Model II at a lower stage volume than the Compact, feedback isn't as much of an issue.

I've got one particular room in mind where I've run the Model II and the Compact side by side and experienced exactly what I've described above. I hope to be able to get a Model 1S into that room at my next gig there so that I can report back to the community.

edits for clarity.
Are there any videos or published guidelines for use as a PA with a band.

I realize that bands have been using L1s for a while but this is the first time (that I am aware of) for Bose to advertise as a "PA".

It would be nice if Someone-at-Bose would "officially" introduce the new system with a statement here.

O..
Hi Oldghm

I understand that you are looking for a response from Bose, so I'm jut popping in with this while we're waiting.

quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm:
Are there any videos or published guidelines for use as a PA with a band.

I realize that bands have been using L1s for a while but this is the first time (that I am aware of) for Bose to advertise as a "PA".

From the Bose FAQs

Question: We’re interested in using the product
for our band. Does every musician in
the band need his or her own L1®
Model 1S system?


Answer: There are many ways that an L1® system can be used with a band. One per player is ideal; however, members can share as few as two being used as a pair behind the performers. With all L1® system approaches, this
eliminates conventional PA and monitors and results in a PA that you can put behind you.

Question: Can L1® systems be used as a traditional PA system?

Answer: Yes. L1® Model 1S systems can be used to replace PA speakers. Their unique radiation properties help them deliver more even sound coverage and a larger stereo field – a benefit that has been confirmed in listening tests. The benefits of compactness for transportation and rapid assembly will also be enjoyed.


Source: Model 1S (see the link to FAQs)
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi Bob,

quote:
Originally posted by BobKinSTL:
I am thinking seriously of upgrading from the Compact, but as a solo guitar player/singer in small to medium size venues I am not tempted by the B2, however I thought the 1s with B1 sounded great at my local GC yesterday. For all you good techies here, is there anything to suggest that the new 1s with a B1 will have better gain before feedback than the Compact? One environment I play is loud, lots of glass, and I battle a bit with feedback through the mic. So to ask the question another way, if "x" db is pushing my Compact to the point of feedback, any reason to think that the 1s could go to "x" or higher without a feedback issue?


I haven't had an opportunity to test this out with the Model 1S in a live situation, but do I know that the Model II is better than the Compact in this way: I get better performance with the Model II than the Compact specifically with respect to what I'll call projection-before-feedback.

I made up my own term here "projection-before-feedback" because I am talking about how well I can project into a room before feedback becomes an issue.

The traditional term "gain-before-feedback" isn't particularly helpful here because the REAL issue as I see it, is not how much I can amplify my sound (gain) before feedback. The issue is how well can I project into a room before feedback.

Projecting out say... 50 feet in a crowded room, I find that I have to run the Compact louder than the Model II to get the job done, and at that point, with the Compact, I have to be much more careful about feedback than with the Model II. I'm not trying for more gain-before-feedback, I'm concerned with my ability to project into the room before feedback. Since I can run the Model II at a lower stage volume than the Compact, feedback isn't as much of an issue.

I've got one particular room in mind where I've run the Model II and the Compact side by side and experienced exactly what I've described above. I hope to be able to get a Model 1S into that room at my next gig there so that I can report back to the community.

edits for clarity.

ST, thanks. I like your term "projection-before-feedback." Sums it up well. I would also think that maybe the flexibility of being able to reposition the B1 might provide some degree of feedback control compared to the Compact. I need strings so I'm sure I'll be playing around with the S1 while at GC today
So far the updater doesn't work in Mac OS 10.8. I had to borrow my wife's PC to do the update.

@BobKinSTL
Hey Bob, not wanting to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong. I am curious about the L1s. But more from a perspective of being able to provide advice to people who may be interested in purchasing a Bose L1 system. I don't work in a music store or any sort of retail but I'm sure all of us Bose users are familiar with the fact that simply by owning and using these systems we are asked our Bose systems all the time.

I don't know if you'll find it helpful at all, but I noticed that you said you perform as a solo guitar player/singer. If you don't use any sort of backing tracks at all and it's just your voice and guitar, I think a single B1 would actually be the best choice, keeping in mind that I'm speaking from my experience with the Model II and B1s. I'm speaking mostly to the difference between B1 and B2. I'm toying with the idea of keeping a single B1 in my arsenal just for that purpose, I just have to decide if the number of times that situation will come up would make it worth while to keep it.

As you can tell by my reviews I think the B2 is simply amazing, if you run any sort of backing tracks or have any thoughts to the future of maybe doing a little more with the L1s I think the B2 is a great investment. It really can easily take the place of 4 B1s and IMO out performs 4 B1s hands down. From a cost effective stand point in Canada any way the B1 is $315 and the B2 is $550. 4 B1s with a packlite amp is up over $1600. So if you do the math, if you were ever thinking you would want at least 2 B1s it just makes sense to get the B2. But again from the perspective of a solo guitar/vocal standpoint with no backing tracks, the B1 is the ticket. You'll get the sound you need without having to do too much with the EQ. I'm not trying to sway anyone's decisions, just offering some food for thought and consideration.
Hi Tom,

Thanks for these links. I added these to the wiki page after you posted them.

quote:
Originally posted by Tom Munch:
Here's Craig from Bose giving the company position on where the 1S and B2 fit into the line.

1S

B2

[edit - I just realized these are also on ST's new pages on the wiki]
Can you use the lower extension from the Model 1S in the Model II Power Stand?

Short answer ... No. It all fits, but there is no sound from the Cylindrical Radiator®

Background information

I knew that I had seen this question in a couple of places. Here is one of them.

quote:
Originally posted by Oldghm: in the "SAW AN AD.... discussion.
...

It would be nice if one could just buy the speaker and extension and use your current Model II powerstand, but,.... I suspect that it being advertised as a PA replacement to use in back of a band might mean a change in DSP that would make in not compatible with Model II speakers or vice versa.

Below is something I posted a while back. Can't wait to see the input/output section on the powerstand.

O..


Posted Thu May 24 2012 07:25 AM Hide Post

Bose could make a new speaker system that worked on the Model II that would have a redesigned top half with an "extension" to hold it to the right height.

That way the Model II could serve two different sized venues.


...

O..


I just tried all combinations of Cylindrical Radiator® sections and Power Stands with the Model 1S and the Model II.

Physically, all the outside dimensions are the same except that the Model II Cylindrical Radiator® lower section is about 4.6" longer than the empty lower extension on the Model 1S. That's why the Mode1 1S stands 4.6" shorter than the Model II.

When you use the Model 1S lower extension in the Model II Power stand, and then add the top section from either the Model 1S or the Model II, the Cylindrical Radiator® is silent.

You can find this and more information about the Model 1S and the Model II here: L1® Family Comparisons Page
Hello AJ,

Please see the quoted message below from Litensirens.

quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi AJ,


[QUOTE]Originally posted by AJ:
I have a Model2. Can I use the new B2 base bin without tonematch Mixer?

Thanks!
AJ
Class Entertainment



quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens: (now moved to the new discussion B2 Live Results
...

@AJ
1) You have a few options - you just use the B2 in "normal" mode
2) Borrow a friend's tonematch to update your powerstand firmware with it
3) I believe ST posted earlier in this thread that GC and other Bose dealers are offering Bose users to bring in their power stands to be updated. (page 2 of this thread 3rd post down)
quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
So far the updater doesn't work in Mac OS 10.8. I had to borrow my wife's PC to do the update.

@BobKinSTL
Hey Bob, not wanting to stick my nose in where it doesn't belong. I am curious about the L1s. But more from a perspective of being able to provide advice to people who may be interested in purchasing a Bose L1 system. I don't work in a music store or any sort of retail but I'm sure all of us Bose users are familiar with the fact that simply by owning and using these systems we are asked our Bose systems all the time.

I don't know if you'll find it helpful at all, but I noticed that you said you perform as a solo guitar player/singer. If you don't use any sort of backing tracks at all and it's just your voice and guitar, I think a single B1 would actually be the best choice, keeping in mind that I'm speaking from my experience with the Model II and B1s. I'm speaking mostly to the difference between B1 and B2. I'm toying with the idea of keeping a single B1 in my arsenal just for that purpose, I just have to decide if the number of times that situation will come up would make it worth while to keep it.

As you can tell by my reviews I think the B2 is simply amazing, if you run any sort of backing tracks or have any thoughts to the future of maybe doing a little more with the L1s I think the B2 is a great investment. It really can easily take the place of 4 B1s and IMO out performs 4 B1s hands down. From a cost effective stand point in Canada any way the B1 is $315 and the B2 is $550. 4 B1s with a packlite amp is up over $1600. So if you do the math, if you were ever thinking you would want at least 2 B1s it just makes sense to get the B2. But again from the perspective of a solo guitar/vocal standpoint with no backing tracks, the B1 is the ticket. You'll get the sound you need without having to do too much with the EQ. I'm not trying to sway anyone's decisions, just offering some food for thought and consideration.


I appreciate your feedback. Aside from technical help hearing people's opinions is what this forum is all about. I agree with you that for me a single B1 is the way to go. I don't use backing tracks and I've never felt that I lack enough base with my L1 Compact. I played through the new 1s with a B1 again yesterday at GC, I'm pretty sure there is a purchase in my very near future.
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Can you use the lower extension from the Model 1S in the Model II Power Stand?

Short answer ... No. It all fits, but there is no sound from the Cylindrical Radiator®


This is a real shame!!!!
It fits but no sound, well with any luck the fact that it fits leaves the door open that at least another firmware upgrade to the power stand could possibly make it work. The only reason I could think of to make it not work is if there is some underlying reason that it would be a huge no-no to use the bass line out when using the blank and the top array, this guess simply "bassed" (misspelled on purposed) on the fact that the 1s power stand does not have the bass line out. But if that is the case and it's that crucial that a simple warning of "don't use the bass line out if using the blank bottom" wouldn't suffice, could they not write the firmware update to disable the bass line out if the power stand senses that you are using the blank bottom?

Bose is a smart company, they must realize that the model 2 sales they have already probably don't represent a huge portion of the market for the 1s. I mean if I already own a model 2, aside from the 4.5 inches in height that I could save what reason would I have to buy a 1s. Less output? I can simply turn down the volume on the model 2. Less to carry and set up? Nope, exactly the same. Better sound? I doubt it. So, really if I own the model 2 there is really no reason for me to by a 1s, we aren't the market. I won't spend that kind of money to save 4.5" in height. Especially if it means I'm gonna have 3 extra pieces to store and or carry around in case I get to a gig where I absolutely need to save the 4.5".

That said I would spend the money to buy a couple of blank bottoms, which would by contrast probably be much cheaper (I mean it has to be the cheapest component in the mix) and easy enough to cart around so if you get to a low ceiling gig you have an option available.

Plus it would give me an idea of what the 1s sounds like so that we can be ambassadors for Bose and maybe point people in the right direction who are trying to decide which model to buy. I had mentioned in another post that just by virtue of the fact that we play Bose systems we are ambassadors. I know I can't be the only one who gets questions at every single gig about the Bose systems. Heck I'm not even the only one in my band that gets questions every gig, I've overheard countless conversations between patrons and band members discussing our Bose systems.

I'm the only one in any of my bands that owns Bose equipment (how lucky for all the others that I spend the money and they get to enjoy the experience). But at least now they all are believers. Price can be prohibitive on a model 2 with T1 and B2 but 1s with T1 and B2 might be more attractive. What if I could set up a mock 1s configuration for the guys to try out using my model 2 with blank bottom. They could get a real sense as bass player or drummer or guitar player (who may only need B1) if the 1s would cut it.

All this to say I think it's a real missed opportunity. Bose has sold a few L1 systems based on my recommendations because I believe in the product. I may have sold more than I'm aware of just by using it live and sounding good. But who knows maybe they will add support for this as the did with the B2. Here's to hoping!!
Hi Litesnsirens

quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Can you use the lower extension from the Model 1S in the Model II Power Stand?

Short answer ... No. It all fits, but there is no sound from the Cylindrical Radiator®


This is a real shame!!!!
It fits but no sound, well with any luck the fact that it fits leaves the door open that at least another firmware upgrade to the power stand could possibly make it work. The only reason I could think of to make it not work is if there is some underlying reason that it would be a huge no-no ...


I could imagine that with the higher output of the Model II Power Stand amp for the Cylindrical Radiator®, that running it with only half the load could put either the amp or the Cylindrical Radiator® section at risk.

More later...
More about the extensions...

I agree that as a Model II owner, I am not the target audience for the Model 1S. It takes only a simple firmware update to fully enable the a B2 on the Model II. With that the Model II remains as Craig¹ put it, "the flagship of the line". I can't imagine the use-case where I would prefer the Model 1S over the Model II. There is the issue of a low ceiling, but I've only encountered that in a fully licensed public venue once since 2004. I know that it is a greater problem in the UK, but it doesn't come up often in conversation here very often. When it does, it's usually in the context of someone's rehearsal space. In that case the option of running Half Stack could work.

There does however remain the risk that someone could buy an extension and attempt to run the full Model II Cylindrical Radiator® on top of that. It would take some jury-rigging, but if you could pull it off, I'm pretty sure that it would be a serious tipping hazard.

quote:
Originally posted by Litensirens:
What if I could set up a mock 1s configuration for the guys to try out using my model 2 with blank bottom. They could get a real sense as bass player or drummer or guitar player (who may only need B1) if the 1s would cut it.


From what I've heard with the Model 1S so far, it is similar to the Model II: Very very similar. I think that it is close enough that someone hearing my Model II could decide if it was worthwhile to investigate getting an L1® approach and decide on their own if they want to get a Model 1S or Model II.

I have no significant fear that hearing my Model II would create an inappropriate expectation about what to expect from a Model 1S.



¹ See the video here: L1® Model 1S (click Craig's picture when you get there).
Hi ST, yes I watched that video yesterday. And I can certainly imagine that the 1s and the modell 2 sound very similar. But they are report to cover a different range of audience size. It might be difficult for someone to decide if "up to 300 people" would work as opposed to "up to 500 people", if you know what I mean.

300 vs 500 in who's opinion? I know it's Bose's opinion but range and volume comfort can be somewhat subjective as is the room and the type of audience those 300-500 people are in.

If you are comparing the two based on audience size or system power, I don't think it's as tangible as say a bass player pluggin into the system, turning it up, maybe A/B'ing with his current rig and being able to say "ya that's about how loud I get in any particular club that I play" then deciding if there's still enough under the hood in case he/she needs it. We all want to feel safe that there's something left and no one wants to have to drive their system full out just to keep up.
Remember ST, we've been using the systems for a while now. You significantly longer than me, but even I have a decent understanding of how the systems work. Try to explain that to someone thinking about coming over from conventional amplification systems. It takes awhile to sink in or for them to get it. They may need a more tactile experience to be able to make a decision.

Is being able to use a blank bottom going to really make that big of a difference in the real world be it low ceilings or variations of the systems at our disposal? Hard to say, maybe not, those are just two scenarios that I could think of off hand. I play one club fairly regularly with lower ceilings and 4.5 inches would allow us more flexibility in terms of placement. We can set up both model 2s but we have to stick one out to the side and right beside a table. To the point where if the person in the chair at one end of the table isn't careful getting out of their seat they could hit the L1 with their chair. Another room downtown we use the house system because although the ceiling would be high enough from the floor it's not from the stage. The stage is about 18" but the ceiling is lower over the stage as well, it's kind of a cove. As anyone who's been spoiled by Bose knows, going back to conventional house PA is no fun at all.
Hi Litesnsirens,



quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
Hi ST, yes I watched that video yesterday. And I can certainly imagine that the 1s and the modell 2 sound very similar. But they are report to cover a different range of audience size. It might be difficult for someone to decide if "up to 300 people" would work as opposed to "up to 500 people", if you know what I mean.

300 vs 500 in who's opinion? I know it's Bose's opinion but range and volume comfort can be somewhat subjective as is the room and the type of audience those 300-500 people are in.

Here is something from the Model 1S FAQs

quote:

Question: Where can the L1® Model 1S system be used?

The L1® Model 1S system is suitable for audiences up to 300 people.
Typically, this translates to maximum listener distances of about 75 feet
(22.86 meters). Thus the system will fill auditoriums, houses of worship,
gymnasiums, ballrooms, dance clubs, coffeehouses and more.

quote:


If you are comparing the two based on audience size or system power, I don't think it's as tangible as say a bass player pluggin into the system, turning it up, maybe A/B'ing with his current rig and being able to say "ya that's about how loud I get in any particular club that I play" then deciding if there's still enough under the hood in case he/she needs it. We all want to feel safe that there's something left and no one wants to have to drive their system full out just to keep up.
Remember ST, we've been using the systems for a while now. You significantly longer than me, but even I have a decent understanding of how the systems work. Try to explain that to someone thinking about coming over from conventional amplification systems. It takes awhile to sink in or for them to get it. They may need a more tactile experience to be able to make a decision.


I don't disagree with you ... like the song: There ain't nothin' like the real thing for a demo. But for all the people who have run through my gear and subsequently gone on to make decisions about gear, (Bose and other), I don't think any of them made the decision based solely on their casual experience of doing a guest set on my stage, or hearing my rig at a gig.

I really like my (Bose) gear and I'm happy to talk with people about it, and if it makes sense in the moment, to let them try it out. And I have felt for eight years that if you travel with something radically different, you become a showcase if not a spokesperson for it. It's funny how we ride a see-saw of credibility with our gear. If at first we are not seen to be credible, but the gear is, then we gain by the halo effect. And that works in the other direction too.

But my point is, I'm out to play the gig not to sell the rig. If there's an opportunity to help someone in their thinking about all of this, and if it doesn't interfere with the gig, then sure, I'm all for it. And I hope that people will be able to imagine themselves running L1® gear, and that this imagining gets them to the point where they do their own further investigation. But I think that showing people the flagship is just as valuable as showing them some emulation of the Model 1S. If it catches their interest, then it's up to them to take it to the next level.


quote:


Is being able to use a blank bottom going to really make that big of a difference in the real world be it low ceilings or variations of the systems at our disposal? Hard to say, maybe not, those are just two scenarios that I could think of off hand. I play one club fairly regularly with lower ceilings and 4.5 inches would allow us more flexibility in terms of placement. We can set up both model 2s but we have to stick one out to the side and right beside a table. To the point where if the person in the chair at one end of the table isn't careful getting out of their seat they could hit the L1 with their chair. Another room downtown we use the house system because although the ceiling would be high enough from the floor it's not from the stage. The stage is about 18" but the ceiling is lower over the stage as well, it's kind of a cove. As anyone who's been spoiled by Bose knows, going back to conventional house PA is no fun at all.


Like you, I have encountered very odd set ups with stages too high for the room (and too little clearance for the L1®) and I have had to put the L1®s on the floor, or move the band to the floor and put tables on the stage, and even remove awkward stages to make the gig work. But I just don't see me buying hollow extensions just in case I can't find another way to make things work.
All good points, ST, I expect nothing less from you at this point.
As far as ceiling height goes, in the two venues I have mentioned, I have done what I can to make it work and in one case we can't use the Bose at all, in the other the only option available leaves one of my L1s at risk. I have played these gigs on several occasions but the above solutions are the only ones so far. And I fully expect to play these venues on a fairly regular rotation going forward. So for me even, if I never encountered another difficult space, I would bring the hollow extensions every time I played in one of these rooms. Might even just bring them along if we are playing a new space for the first time, if I don't need them, leave them home next time I play that space. It's all about options for me. And of course it might come down to $$$ too. If the price of the hollow extension was ridiculous I might just suffer through these gigs, I mean let's face it right now I don't have a choice.

And as far as selling people on the system, maybe I'm a little selfish on that point. The main people I would be trying to sell are other band mates. So they could try them out at rehearsals and get a real feel for it. They all know the model 2 works but it's more expensive, I was hoping a 1s might m entice them but I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to whether it will cut it in all scenarios.

As far as selling other musicians, like you I am happy to discuss the Bose gear and if they stick around and watch our band the system pretty much sells itself. But otherwise I'm happy to have a bit of an edge up on sound over the other bands in the area. Bar owners love us we can fill a room with nice clear sound without killing anyone with volume. Not a lot of other bands can do that.
Hi Litesnsirens,

quote:
Originally posted by Litesnsirens:
... And of course it might come down to $$$ too. If the price of the hollow extension was ridiculous I might just suffer through these gigs, I mean let's face it right now I don't have a choice.


It's made of the same material (extruded aluminum) as the Cylindrical Radiator® sections. I suppose that Bose wanted to make a lower extension for the Model II, they could. I'm guessing that it might have to include a dummy load. And I wouldn't expect it to be cheap.
quote:


And as far as selling people on the system, maybe I'm a little selfish on that point. The main people I would be trying to sell are other band mates. So they could try them out at rehearsals and get a real feel for it. They all know the model 2 works but it's more expensive, I was hoping a 1s might m entice them but I wouldn't even want to hazard a guess as to whether it will cut it in all scenarios.

I completely understand and commiserate with your motives here.

It took years before I could say that all my regular musical collaborators were playing through their own L1®s, and it wasn't until they owned them that they took a REAL interest in learning how to run them. Part of that was - as soon as one of them bought his/her own L1®, s/he was anxious to use it in other projects. It's just great when everyone shows up with his/her own gear, and we go through the motions of setup in parallel.
Great conversation, guys. Thanks for sharing...

ST - quick question: You mentioned:

quote:
I just tried all combinations of Cylindrical Radiator® sections and Power Stands with the Model 1S and the Model II.

Physically, all the outside dimensions are the same except that the Model II Cylindrical Radiator® lower section is about 4.6" longer than the empty lower extension on the Model 1S. That's why the Mode1 1S stands 4.6" shorter than the Model II.

When you use the Model 1S lower extension in the Model II Power stand, and then add the top section from either the Model 1S or the Model II, the Cylindrical Radiator® is silent.


ST - Did you try putting the Model II Cylindrical Radiators® into the Model 1S powerstand?

Also, does the Model II TOP Cylindrical Radiator® work when put on the Model 1S blank bottom when seated in the Model 1S powerstand? (i.e. are the Model 1S and Model II top Cylindrical Radiators® interchangeable?)

Not that I could ever imagine real-world uses for these set-ups; just curious if they would work or not.



quote:
That said I would spend the money to buy a couple of blank bottoms, which would by contrast probably be much cheaper (I mean it has to be the cheapest component in the mix) and easy enough to cart around so if you get to a low ceiling gig you have an option available.

Plus it would give me an idea of what the 1s sounds like so that we can be ambassadors for Bose and maybe point people in the right direction who are trying to decide which model to buy.




+1 to this, Litesnsirens. You're right, all of us L1 owners are L1 ambassadors, and I would say most of us are even L1 evangelists - thrilled to share with other musicians and venue proprietors how the L1 has changed our lives for the better, and wanting to "pay it forward" if you will; to bring that same joy of audio clarity and detail, and relief from the stress, strain, and time-suck of traditional triple-system PA systems. I think most of us Model II owners would be happy to carry around an extra Model 1S blank stand, in case we encounter a low-ceiling need, or can help a colleague or audience member with an accurate impromptu demo.

Bose engineers: Would it be possible, as suggested, to update the Model II firmware in order to use the Model L1S blank stand with the Model II powerstand and Model II Cylindrical Radiator®?

Never hurts to ask...they are always listening, and as we've seen, they are masters of making the impossible possible.

As a Referral Specialist, I do a lot of demos in the actual spaces of where potential clients play regularly (i.e. churches, restaurants, schools, etc.), and I would LOVE to be able to just swap out the lower Cylindrical Radiator® of the Model II with the Model 1S blank, to give a more accurate representation of what an L1 Model 1S would sound like in that space.
You know my drummer has become as proficient at using the T1 as I am. He often at least mixes one side while I do the other. If I can put both within his reach, I trust him to run both. I own both systems but he has taken an interest and has had enough practice since I got them to learn his way around the workings of the T1.
He is a Foley Artist by trade so he is used to at least mixing sound in Pro Tools and other DAWs, so he has a good base to work from.
Missed opportunity. I couldn't agree more

I've posted both publicly and privately on this subject, can't remember what I've said here, but litesnsirens comments above prompt me to speak again. Hope I'm not boring with repetition.

I see absolutely no incentive for a Model II owner to buy the 1S. For a manufacturer to ignore or leave out the section of buyers who own their "flagship" model doesn't make sense to me.

So my question is, what would have made the 1S a desirable product for me?

First and foremost, the inclusion of the Comapct I/O group and a ToneMatch port. Best of both worlds and infinitly more versatile. I am sure there are points to be made, arguments against, maybe a price concern, but they don't add up to the missed opportunity.(in my opinion) The R&D has already been done, the internal parts are in the pipeline it just takes a bit of engineering, a few more moves to cut the additional holes, yes, I know I make it sound easier than it is, but I don't believe it would be a difficult move to make. I searched a major online retailer for mixers under $100. I quickly got 10 mixers that had many more features and knobs and I/O jacks than I am asking for in the 1S. They are being put in their own steel box, packaged in cardboard, and shipped around the world for that price. Surely Bose could manage what I'm asking for, for a reasonable premium. Some will say those "other" mixers don't have Bose ToneMatch technology, but there is value in making that accessible for a small price.

New small cars are loaded with technology, even people looking for a bargin expect the latest, loaded up features available. I don't think Bose could add enough possibilities to make the 1S less desirable than it is, if the features are a good value.

Now.... What if it included the above and also was capable of running both the 1S speaker and the Model II array, then the market is expanded again. It could be viable choice for a second or backup system for all users / owners of the Model II.

Maybe when one opportunity is missed another one becomes possible. So Bose if you are listening, consider a new powerstand. Model IIS III or something. Include the I/O of the Compact and the ToneMatch port. Make it compatible with both the 1S and the Model II speakers. Make it available with either set of speakers or alone.

An after thought:

Making a dual use powerstand might have been easier if Bose had just made the 1S speaker work on the Model II powerstand to begin with. It would also have made the power hungry like it, to have Model II power with half the speakers. Smile

O..

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