Hi y'all
In the early days of playing I had to remind myself of things like "let the amp do the heavy lifting" (instead of my fingers), so over the past little while I've come up with a few points that seem to be helping with the System. I'd really appreciate your comments on these little maxims I try to remember when setting up and playing.

Perception of volume and hearing yourself.
  • Let nothing (human or otherwise) come between you and your System***.

  • Let no sound source be closer to you than your System (e.g. drum kit or anybody's backline amp). That is, to you, the closest or loudest sounding thing in the mix should be your System. Preferably have the System centred behind you so you are hearing it well with both ears.

  • Let nothing be in the direct line of sight/sound come between you and anybody else's System. (e.g. a drum kit, somebody standing within 2-3 feet of a System - directly in your line of sight).

  • ***I have taken to reminding the other guys in the band of the "hot" zones into which they should not tread while we are playing.
    I'm sure that they are thinking that I have turned into some horrible control-freak jerk over this, but ...

    [soapbox mount]when players who are not singing at the moment start wandering around the stage
    o- they leave open mics behind (feedback hazard, and sound leaking),
    o- and if they get too close to anybody's System, they cast a sound "shadow". This seems to be critical if they are within a couple of feet of a System.

    A consequence of our new setup - without stage monitors, is that it is now possible to inadvertently cut-someone-off from their personal sound source in the mix.

    Peripatetic players with loud instruments (violin, squeezebox, tambourine) who want to add drama with choreography can temporarily render others unable to hear themselves if they become a closer, louder sound source than the other player's System.
    [/soapbox dismount]



About Volume, Ear-Fatigue & Volume Rising as the gig wears on.
  • Have an understanding that whoever is soloing (in the moment) is setting the dynamics for the band at that point.

    Everyone needs to agree that if s/he can't hear the soloist, then s/he is too loud and needs to exercise their musicianship and come down (volume) in the mix.

  • In a more general sense, if things are balanced, then everyone should be able to hear themselves AND everyone else. If that isn't happening, then s/he (who cannot hear the others) should turn down.

  • A huddle before beginning each set can help with the sense that the show, the sound, the music is more important than a single player. (some exceptions may apply if there is clearly someone who is the Talent) but it is the thought that counts.

  • A Sound pressure level meter can settle occasional disagreements about band volume.

  • The propensity to develop ear fatigue should overall be lower with the System because we don't have to be playing as loud to begin with. So if we haven't been playing overly loud all night, our hearing at the end of the gig should be as good as when we started.


Over the top? Do I need help?

Thanks for reading.

edit
replaced references to PAS with System (observing trademarks)

Attachments

Photos (6)
Original Post
Great post, ST. I'd add a couple of points:

1) If you center the PAS behind you and step away from the microphone (assuming you have one), you're going to get feedback. Funky mic orientation (off-axis by a bit, say 15 degrees) can help a whole lot here. And don't forget to tilt the mic up as Bose recommends...the point is that you don't want the mic pointing directly at the tower.

2) Regarding the use of the sound meter: It's important for everyone in the band to understand the dispersion characteristics of the system, preferably by experiencing it for themselves...send each band member out into the room with the PAS running (perhaps with recorded music) at a realistic volume. Then use the sound meter to PROVE to them that the levels on stage are amazingly low. Dispel any future doubts about whether or not the mix is loud enough by reminding band members of what they heard with their own ears.

Ask the audience if everyone can hear the band okay...especially those at the back of the room.

Don't forget that musicians often want the music to be louder than it needs to be. We're not in the business of punishing the audience. Volume alone is not impressive.

Too many bands are too flippin' loud*.... My criterion is that if everyone in the audience can carry on a conversation without having to shout at one another, it's about right. For the smallish venues where I play, this means about 90-95 db right in front of the stage.

3) I appreciate the bit about people walking between you and your PAS, but IMHO in the interests of peace on the stage it might be wise to not get too anal about that. If everyone understands that they shouldn't loiter right there, what's the big deal if they pass through the "hot zone"?

* Short story about excessive volume...I went to see the Dixie Dregs at Toad's Place in New Haven, CT several months ago. I was standing at the back of the room, right under the tower where the sound man sits. It was SO loud... (how loud was it?)... it was SO loud that my shirt sleeves were fluttering in the breeze, no lie...at the back of the room! It was so loud that half the time I couldn't even tell which tune they were playing, even though I know the music. I wanted to strangle the sound man!
"Peripatetic players " - an Aristotelian alliteration, if ever I heard one! I'm intrigued by your description of "sound shadows" - I have yet to experience that, since I tend to be more of a sedentary six stringer and tend to play with the same. I almost want to have someone walk across the back of the stage so I can hear what you mean...

Great stuff, ST! I'll be referring lots of folks to this post, in the interest of ensemble enhancement...
[edit]Originally posted by ST:
Hi Chuck,

Thanks for you reply....

--- it looks like I had to use the attachment method to get the images to display so I've resubmitted these separately a few posts down ---

[/edit]
Hi Andrew,

Thanks for this
quote:
3) I appreciate the bit about people walking between you and your PAS, but IMHO in the interests of peace on the stage it might be wise to not get too anal about that. If everyone understands that they shouldn't loiter right there, what's the big deal if they pass through the "hot zone"?



I mean it - thanks...

It's not so bad when someone is just "passing through", but it has been a problem when someone parks in the hot zone.

It seems that every occasion where a musician complains that s/he cannot hear her/himself through a PAS it has because someone else has parked her/himself in front of a PAS. This most often happens when I do open stage events, and space is tight.

Here's an extreme example:
(see picture below)
One night a bunch of us were thrown together on stage and the principal vocalist was playing keys.
  • I put her centre stage and ran her keys and vocals through a PAS. Shoulda been fine.
  • The stage was shallow and she was only three feet in front of the PAS. The way things were setup, she was hearing herself mainly through her left ear.
  • The well meaning bass player hovered over her left shoulder so he could see and read her left hand looking for "roots" in the chords. No surprise she couldn't hear herself.


In another tight stage setting I was playing guitar and singing
  • Similar setup - PAS about three feet behind me, slightly to the left. I as usual, I stand at the extreme stage right.
  • Every time I solo'd or sang the chorus of a song, a wandering player with his squeezebox would sidle-on-up beside me (his version of showing interest/support).
  • As he got between me and the PAS, I was rendered unable to hear.
  • Not to single out squeezebox players, in the last few weeks, the same thing has happened with an alto sax, harmonica (through his mic-into-a-guitar-amp-'cause-that's-my-sound-man).


You are right Andrew. Peace on stage is important, and being over-the-top anal is not conducive to that.

If I diplomatically point out the consequences of lingering in these hot zones, to those players who do it, I can only hope that they will remember it during the passion of playing together.
I agree about the drum thing, ST. For our first few rehearsals and gigs, we had the standard rock set up with the drums in the center. We had 2 PAS' to the drummer's right and one to his left. The two PAS' that were together heard each other fine, but couldn't hear the one on the other side. Likewise, the PAS to the drummer's left had a real hard time hearing the guys on the other side of the stage.

We tried all kinds of drum quieting tricks, but the only thing that REALLY worked was getting the drums out of the middle. The minute we had the 3 PAS' together and uninterupted, everything just came together and sounded fantastic, and at a much more reasonable volume level.
Chuck, I'll try the images as attachments.
...
Hi Chuck,

Thanks for you reply.

Some expanatory notes about the sound "shadows".

I've got only two PAS units, and frequently play in
  • A duo (unplugged stuff),
  • A four piece (blues band - whatever and all that that implies),
  • An eight piece octopus (okay octet) including three horns and electric violin (jazz oriented R&B), and we play in various venues.


The challenge has been that when stage area is at a premium (most of the time it is for us), we cannot get even close to the ideal arrangement. I think it is the most difficult when the stage area is shallow (front to back) and we are standing too close to the PAS units.

In the Owners Guide (Page 8) there are three diagrams showing "OK", "Better", "Best" placement recommendations. I just spent the last hour scouring the site looking for these pictures online, because I knew I had seen them someplace. Last place I looked was on paper.
Here's a quick rendering of the three setups (I've used guitars instead of the instruments shown in the manual)

Situation 1 - Best (3rd illustration below)
In this fairly ideal setup with 7-8' between the players, and 7-8' between the players and their PAS units, things are really nice.



Edit - a year later...
First a note from the Bose FAQs.
What happens if a musician is blocking the view of the L1 Cylindrical Radiator® loudspeaker? Doesn’t that block the sound?

Sound diffracts (bends) around objects. So long as the musician is not standing literally against the L1 Cylindrical Radiator® loudspeaker, the sound diffracts around the musician or other objects such as a keyboard or other musical instrument. This effect can easily be demonstrated by having someone hold their hand in front of their mouth with their arm straight (so that the hand is several feet in front of the mouth) and then talking. Although the hand visually blocks the mouth, the sound changes little or not at all. A highly discerning listener may hear subtle changes in sound corresponding to the bending of sound waves around objects, but these effects are described by even these highly trained listeners as subtle. Most don’t hear these changes at all.

The issues I went on to describe below do not conflict with this statement from Bose. Rather, I think they speak to what happens when someone or something is right up against the loudspeaker, or very close to the player.

Read on...
Situation 2 - Best with Shadows
If there are sound shadows the effect comes up when someone gets really close to a PAS unit.
I'm hoping this helps to describe it.
  • I've drawn only the perspective of the player in the middle.
  • The green zone is how s/he hears her/himself.
  • The blue zone is how s/he hears the other players.
  • If someone gets into the orange zone, s/he can make it difficult to hear.


But in that best situation, it's really not too bad.
Situation 3 - OK setup with Shadows
Things get a little ugly when you are in the "OK" situation (about 3' between the players and their respective PAS units, and 3' between the players).
  • I've drawn only the perspective of the player in the middle.
  • The green zone is how s/he hears her/himself.
  • The blue zone is how s/he hears the other players.
  • It would be best to avoid the shaded (green, blue and especially orange zones altogether, but:
    If someone gets into, and lingers in the orange zone, s/he can make it very difficult to hear.


Counterpoint from the Bose Support Site (added 2005/02/10)
Sound diffracts (bends) around objects. So long as the musician is not standing literally against the L1 Cylindrical Radiator™ loudspeaker, the sound diffracts around the musician or other objects such as a keyboard or other musical instrument. This effect can easily be demonstrated by having someone hold their hand in front of their mouth with their arm straight (so that the hand is several feet in front of the mouth) and then talking. Although the hand visually blocks the mouth, the sound changes little or not at all. A highly discerning listener may hear subtle changes in sound corresponding to the bending of sound waves around objects, but these effects are described by even these highly trained listeners as subtle. Most don’t hear these changes at all.

Reference - What happens if a musician is blocking the view of the L1 Cylindrical Radiator™ loudspeaker? Doesn’t that block the sound?

Point of clarification here: What I am describing in the orange zones is similar to placing your hand within an inch or two your mouth or over your ears.

edit - added counterpoint and comments.
Situation 4 - OK setup with loud sound source in close proximity
I've put the drummer between two players with their PASs. From the perspective of the player on the left
  • S/he can barely hear her/himself.
  • S/he can definitely not hear the other PAS


General outcomes
  • =>The two people out front can barely hear themselves or one another.
  • The drummer hears everything really well, but may have a greater tendency to play too loud to because the two PAS players may have turned up to hear themselves.
  • I'm not picking on drummers here. The player in the middle could be a drummer, or it could be anyone playing anything that is acoustically loud. Due to the precedence effect, if someone/thing is closer/louder than your PAS or someone else's PAS there's trouble in paradise.
So...

Situation 4 appears to bring out a fundamental problem. Musicians and audiences both are accustomed to seeing the drummer in the middle of the stage.

What, in your opinion, is the best way to deal with this?

I can see two possibilities:

1) Put the drummer all the way to one end.
2) Put the PASes BEHIND the drummer, and the drummer out front, with the guitarist/bassist back far enough to be able to hear the PASes.
gittar-jonz,

Strongly agree with you about this:
quote:
We tried all kinds of drum quieting tricks, but the only thing that REALLY worked was getting the drums out of the middle. The minute we had the 3 PAS' together and uninterupted, everything just came together and sounded fantastic, and at a much more reasonable volume level.


We had a gig last night and with the drummer at one side of the band instead of the middle, everyone (including the drummer) was happier and we were keep the volume appropriate for the house.

I could clearly see folks carrying on conversations, while others were dancing and having a good time.

We were loud enough to be heard, "conversationally" with people at the back of the house (I saw some friends and said "hi" between songs), without blasting out the dancers who awaited the next song. The clarity was stunning.
Hey everyone great topic!
As I have written on the forum before.
when you take the drums out of the middle
and put them on the outside of the band
say to the right of the lead singer it
keeps the drummer from over powering the
pas!Why? Because the drummer has to listen more for the sound and so has to play more quietly.
Plus by being more on the outside the sound of the drums does not mask or block the sound coming from the pas.AL
I thought I posted about this earlier today
but I have found that putting the drummer on the outside of the band say to the right or left of the singer helps the drummer to stay under control. I think this is because the dummer is hearing more of the room than the pas.
Also, with the drummer on the outside you don't have to turn up the pas so much. Plus the sound of the drums doesn't drown out the sound of the singer or singers PAS. AL.....
Here's a quick picture about mic setup on the stand. The goal here is to have the microphone angled upwards rather than pointing directly at the Cylindrical Radiator® (L1).

Also, you want to "point" it off axis from the System - as if you were trying to focus the microphone at an imaginary point above and a couple of feet to the left or right of the L1.
I have just a few days ago purchased 2 of the systems and used them on 2 shows last weekend.
I have been reading the messages from the forum and most of the questions etc relate to use of the PAS by bands.
I am a solo musical comedy entertainer, I normally work on a fairly small stage 8' deep and 12' wide. For the first 2 gigs I set up both systems at the back of the stage in the corners, and put myself and my keyboard center stage, at the front. Would I be better to set both systems directly behind me? I did expereince some bass feedback last Sat at the gig.
Just like to get some help about where to place
them, thanks. I am running an AKG wirelss mike through channel one and my keyboard through channel 2.
thanks
Jimmy Keys
Hi Jimmy Keys,

If you are running into the PAS units in stereo, from your keyboard, and the stage is as narrow as you say, then I'd imagine you're getting great sound.

I imagine you could do this:

PAS 1
channel 1 - your vocal
channel 2 - Left output from the keys

channel 1 - Line Out goes to PAS 2

PAS 2
channel 1 - your vocal coming from PAS 1, Line Out
channel 2 - Right output from keys

To do the connection from PAS 1 to PAS 2
Take an ordinary microphone cable and run it
- from PAS 1 "Line Out" in the Channel 1 group
- to PAS 2, Channel 1


Much of the discussion debating the relative merits of stereo is probably most applicable to bands. Since there is only you... (no denigration implied here) it's probably fine. I am making some assumptions about the complexity of the sound you have coming out of the keyboard (fairly simple?) and the overall volume (not band level but a little lower?)

I also think one PAS on each side of the stage is okay - although my gut says to move them a little closer together. (7-8 feet apart seems right). I can't get scientific for you, but if the units are fairly close together, you are not as likely to run into issues with the precedence effect and people only hearing one PAS or the other as would likely be the case if they were wider apart.

There's probably no benefit to putting them directly behind you.

As far as the bass feedback, try aiming the B1s away from you. (outwards away from center stage). You will have room to do this if the PAS units are closer together.

I don't know if this makes sense, but picture a square 7-8' on each side.

The square is centered width-wise on the stage.

You and the keys are on the edge closest to the audience.

The PAS units are in the corners at the back of the square.

The B1 bass units are on the outside edges at the corners aiming slightly outwards.

How does that sound to you?
Perhaps the bass feedback is being caused by resonance of the stage itself (this assumes that the mic is on a stand and not hand-held, which seems likely if you're playing a keyboard unless you have some REALLY unusual anatomy Big Grin ). Try isolating the B1s by putting them on pads.

Also...in my experience a little tweak of the EQ on the remotes goes a LONG way.
Hi Andrew,

Jimmy Keys said
quote:
I am running an AKG wirelss mike through channel one


So barring really unusual anatomy, I don't think it's stage resonance. But that's an interesting reminder about those horrible temporary stages you sometimes get in hotel ballrooms.
JImmy Keys here, thanks ST for the reply, I will definitely try moving the bass units out and your other suggestions.
I just did a show tonight, and for the first time only used one PAS instead of two (as on the first 2 gigs after buying the systems)
it was a smaller audience of 150 ppl, and unfortunately I had terrible problems tonight with the sound. It was actually distorting quite badly when I started playing and singing at the same time tonight?? The only thing I had changed today was to turn up the trim on the voca and the keyboard. I found I had to do this becuase the system just was not (for some reason) as loud as the night before.
I really need some help here as I do a lot of shows and the sound is VERY important. is it possible to get a Bose representative to come along on a show with me? I am frustrated because obviously I have just spent $4000 on this system, and I want it to work properly.
Maybe I have it set up incorrectly becase the distortion was very bad tonight.
Help please!
Jimmy Keys
hey Andrew, thanks for your response. Unfortunately at almost every show I perfrom at, it is on a temporary stage/riser supplied by the venues I work at, these are the type rented for my show for the evening.
I just posted another message just now because as I said in the posting, I had really bad problems tonight at the gig.
Actual distortion from using one PAS?? How high would anyone suggest setting the trim control?
Maybe I have this too high? Could this cause the distortion.
I also have on the remote, the master up full and the individual volumes on each channel at about 3/4.
I am seriously considering returning the bose and reverting to my old mackie powered system, but really wnat the bose to work for me, but having a lot of problems.

Jimmy keys
Jimmy,
Can you talk about your connections to the PS1 with the one PS1/L1 setup last night? I'd like to understand your setup and maybe recommend a couple things. Also, where was the MASTER set to where you heard the distortion? On channels one and two did you check the LED for a red indication?

Thanks,
Kyle-at-Bose

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy keys:
JImmy Keys here, thanks ST for the reply, I will definitely try moving the bass units out and your other suggestions.
I just did a show tonight, and for the first time only used one PAS instead of two (as on the first 2 gigs after buying the systems)
it was a smaller audience of 150 ppl, and unfortunately I had terrible problems tonight with the sound. It was actually distorting quite badly when I started playing and singing at the same time tonight?? The only thing I had changed today was to turn up the trim on the voca and the keyboard. I found I had to do this becuase the system just was not (for some reason) as loud as the night before.
I really need some help here as I do a lot of shows and the sound is VERY important. is it possible to get a Bose representative to come along on a show with me? I am frustrated because obviously I have just spent $4000 on this system, and I want it to work properly.
Maybe I have it set up incorrectly becase the distortion was very bad tonight.
Help please!
Jimmy Keys
Jimmy, as Kyle mentioned, setting the trims right on the input panel is sooooo important to get maxium gain before distoring. In fact, the only way I know of to get the system to distort the signal you send it is to overload the preamp and the trim LED will blink red indicating that it is clipping.

Also, have you listened to how loud your system is in the back of the room? If you're accustomed to it being super loud on stage and not so loud in the back, then you're in for a great surprise with the Cylidrical Radiator(tm) loudspeaker. It's going to "throw" like no other speaker you've experienced.

It's important for you to experience this be cause it is so different than what you're accustomed too. Have someone play your keys while you walk the room.

We can make this work.
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi Andrew,

Jimmy Keys said
quote:
I am running an AKG wirelss mike through channel one


So barring really unusual anatomy, I don't think it's stage resonance. But that's an interesting reminder about those horrible temporary stages you sometimes get in hotel ballrooms.


I'm talking about resonance coming up through the mic stand...how would a wireless mic be any different from a wired mic here? The important part is that it's on a stand instead of being hand-held.
quote:
Originally posted by jimmy keys:
hey Andrew, thanks for your response. Unfortunately at almost every show I perfrom at, it is on a temporary stage/riser supplied by the venues I work at, these are the type rented for my show for the evening.
Jimmy keys


All the more reason to try isolating the bass modules from the stage to get rid of any potential resonance.
quote:
Originally posted by Kyle-at-Bose:
Jimmy,
Can you talk about your connections to the PS1 with the one PS1/L1 setup last night? I'd like to understand your setup and maybe recommend a couple things. Also, where was the MASTER set to where you heard the distortion? On channels one and two did you check the LED for a red indication?

Thanks,
Kyle-at-Bose

quote:
Originally posted by jimmy keys:
JImmy Keys here, thanks ST for the reply, I will definitely try moving the bass units out and your other suggestions.
I just did a show tonight, and for the first time only used one PAS instead of two (as on the first 2 gigs after buying the systems)
it was a smaller audience of 150 ppl, and unfortunately I had terrible problems tonight with the sound. It was actually distorting quite badly when I started playing and singing at the same time tonight?? The only thing I had changed today was to turn up the trim on the voca and the keyboard. I found I had to do this becuase the system just was not (for some reason) as loud as the night before.
I really need some help here as I do a lot of shows and the sound is VERY important. is it possible to get a Bose representative to come along on a show with me? I am frustrated because obviously I have just spent $4000 on this system, and I want it to work properly.
Maybe I have it set up incorrectly becase the distortion was very bad tonight.
Help please!
Jimmy Keys

To Andrew Steve & Kyle,
You guys have been so kind to respond to my problems with my 2 new systems, thank you all.
I am doing another show tonight, and after reading all your advice I am going to move the bass units a little, make sure the red light is not coming on by turning down the trims, and I think maybe not use my effects unit, becauce I suspect this was giving me some of the problems also.
I will send a report about tonights show in the morning. I guess I am bascially finding it hard to fill the room aith my sound without having feedback on stage, plus the distortion problem, but I hope to fix that tonight.
More tomorrow, thanks again, I really appreciate all your help, this is a wonderful service you offer with specialists contributing like this.
Jimmy
Jimmy Keys,

Can you tell us if your wireless microphone is on a stand or (as I assumed) a headset type.

Andrew...
Just me leaping to conclusions from frail, fallacious, foundations.

Of course, if it is on a stand, and as Jimmy keys has said he is on a temporary stage/riser, that dreaded stage resonance is a real possibility.

quote:
Originally posted by Andrew Douglas:
quote:
Originally posted by ST:
Hi Andrew,

Jimmy Keys said
quote:
I am running an AKG wirelss mike through channel one


So barring really unusual anatomy, I don't think it's stage resonance. But that's an interesting reminder about those horrible temporary stages you sometimes get in hotel ballrooms.


I'm talking about resonance coming up through the mic stand...how would a wireless mic be any different from a wired mic here? The important part is that it's on a stand instead of being hand-held.
Yo Jimmy,

I don't think we're giving you the service you deserve. Something's obviously wrong. This is a situation where we need to talk to you voicebox to voicebox. Call the toll free 877 number and let's get to the bottom of this. There's no reason I can think of you can't be enjoying the benefits of this new system.

With your permission and participation, we can post the results of our conversation with you here so that others can follow what happens.

Call the 877 number okay?
Robert L and others...

In the FAQ section: Presets exposed!

It says (emphasis mine)


10 80 Hz Highpass – This rolls off the deep bass. This is a very useful preset, especially for electronic keyboards and “flat” condenser microphones. For instance, many digital pianos will have a giant gob of bass in the lower left-hand. This never happens in a real piano, unless you listen right next to the soundboard. Many keyboards have a lot of deep bass and this part of the audio spectrum really tends to muddy the mix of a live band. If you insist on mega-bass levels from, say, your big fancy synth, go ahead with your bad self. But at least try cutting the deep bass with preset 10 and try to be objective with how this improves the sound of the whole band. This is a whole theme for live playing, by the way: Play your instrument, or play the tune? Play with the band, or play with yourself? With this new system, you can now hear your instrument and the whole band. How you sound and how the whole ensemble sounds is no longer a mystery.

11 5 kHz Lowpass – This rolls off the treble range of audio. This is useful for electric guitar with distortion, especially direct output of amplifiers using “amp load” boxes such as “Power Soak” and the like. These create a lot of high end, due to added harmonics caused by distortion, and de-emphasizing them might be a pleasant and welcome addition to this kind of sound. Try it also with any distortion processor or amp/speaker “modeler”.

12 80Hz/5Khz bandpass - This is also very useful for taking distorted guitar direct from a preamp or amplifier and making it sound a bit sweeter. This filter is also very useful for a lot of things and will sound a lot like 00 for some instruments that are “midrangey”. There are several other band-pass filters in the preset list that you can also use.
ST , thanks for pointing to that area of the FAQ. What is needed is a vocal mic patch with a highpass filter. According to the FAQ, all the vocal mics are programmed with,

"We also added a sharp low-cut filter, keeping only that part of the audio spectrum where the mic is useful, so that using the microphone with this preset minimizes bass regeneration."

Highpass and low-cut are the same thing. So I'm wondering why there is a problem with stage rumble if a vocal mic preset is being used.
With my "3 tier" system I can look at the RTA and visually identify and fix any such problem in a snap.
Robert L
To All,

This may be taking this thread further OT, but lets talk about it anyway. I clicked the link and read the thread about stereo piano. Each time the talk of stereo comes up it is treated negatively by those who are supposed to know.

If the PAS spreads the sound more evenly than any other system that is out there it doesn't make sense that it won't work in stereo.

Assuming that Yamaha knows as much about electronic keyboards as Bose knows about speakers,(I hope that's not too big a stretch) there must be a good reason to build them in stereo. It would seem to me that if internal speakers sound good in stereo, then if the piano is hooked to two PAS units it should only sound better. The only question in my mind would be the width of the stereo field. If we would want the piano to sound like a piano, then the speakers probably shouldn't be any further apart than the length of the Piano. If the PAS works as advertised then all of the audience should hear the piano as it was designed to be heard. On the other hand if the two PAS's were set up 40 feet apart the audience and the player or band for that matter should hear what sounds like a piano that is 40 feet long, probably not the ideal in normal sized bars, clubs or small convention halls, but maybe not a bad idea in large arenas.

This theory is based on the assumtion that the PAS performs as advertised and volume is even throughout the listening area that it is designed to cover, and that the piano's stereo field is split spatially left to right or low to high.

Oldghm
The basic problem with stereo as I understand it is simple...in order to hear the stereo effect properly, you need to be more or less equidistant from both speakers: in the "sweet spot."

If you're sitting immediately in front of one speaker, you'll hear it more clearly than the other and the stereo illusion will be lost or at least severely degraded.

Separating the two speakers too much causes the "sweet spot" to be distorted so much that you lose the effect. Try this with your home stereo:

1) Place the speakers as far apart as possible along the long axis of your room. Listen with your eyes closed and see if you can "place" the sound in space.

2) Now move them to the "ideal" position, so that you're sitting about 1.5x the distance between the speakers away from them, and facing them. (i.e., speakers six feet apart, with you nine feet from them.) Notice how much more vibrant the stereo image is. It's astonishing what a difference there is.

What's also surprising is how much worse the image is when you move out of that sweet spot.

Your example of a 40 foot separation for a stereo piano gives a pretty big venue size...arguably much larger than the PAS was designed for. In a venue that size, it's likely that you'd have a FOH system anyway, and all bets are off with stereo imaging in that case.

With separation that great, the band itself won't be hearing the stereo effect either. Any given band member will be positioned much closer to one side of the image than the other and will hear it much more clearly.
Way back (previous page) when I was responding to Jimmy Keys (I wonder how the gig went last night) I got down this path...
quote:
Much of the discussion debating the relative merits of stereo is probably most applicable to bands. Since there is only you... (no denigration implied here) it's probably fine. I am making some assumptions about the complexity of the sound you have coming out of the keyboard (fairly simple?) and the overall volume (not band level but a little lower?)

I also think one PAS on each side of the stage is okay - although my gut says to move them a little closer together. (7-8 feet apart seems right). I can't get scientific for you, but if the units are fairly close together, you are not as likely to run into issues with the precedence effect and people only hearing one PAS or the other as would likely be the case if they were wider apart.


Still don't know why I had this 'gut' feel that 7-8' might work, but that seems to fit with Oldghm's idea about the length of the piano.

Oldghm said
quote:

Assuming that Yamaha knows as much about electronic keyboards as Bose knows about speakers,(I hope that's not too big a stretch) there must be a good reason to build them in stereo. It would seem to me that if internal speakers sound good in stereo...


As far as the stereo thing in Yamaha pianos... my guess is, cause it sells a lot of pianos. Seriously.

Robert L
At 7-8' feet apart, much beyond the 1.5 times the distance between them, we are probably back to a virtual "mono". I'm guessing that the distance between the speakers is not enough to cause the issues that would arise with 40 feet of separation.
Hi everybody at the forum,
Jimmy Keys here, as promised I wanted to report on how my show went last night after having so much great advice from all of you at Bose and others too!
It actually went much better with the sound (the show was a big success too!)
I used both Pas units last night, there was about 160 ppl in the audience.I cut back on both the trims on my mike and keyboard. I also made sure that the red light was not coming on. I also faced the bass units out to the side of the stage more and slightly angled the 2 tower speakers out to the side a very little also, this helped a lot in reducing feedback.
I did not use my effects unit at all, I actually find that the sound from the bose is so good that I don't hardly miss the reverb or effects. It also gave me a clearer sound than the night before by not using using the effects.
The only strange thing I find is that the "slave PAS", not the one next to me but the one on the other side of the stage, is quite a bit more powerful than the main unit behind me?? Plus I actually had the settings on the master and both channels turned down lower on the slave side (if you know what I mean!) Any idea why this is occuring?
By the way, I also as suggested ran one cable from my keyboard in to one PAS and another cable to the other PAS, this worked well.
As you suggested I will give you guys at Bose a call direct.
thanks for all your assistance so far.
Jimmy

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