L1 Model II

Let's talk about the L1® Portable Line Array Systems

Using proprietary Bose® technology, L1 systems combine  PA and monitors into a single, highly portable unit. The  loudspeaker can be positioned behind or to the side —and you hear what the audience hears.

Highly portable PA and monitor combined for solo performers, DJs and general-purpose use. Fixed vertical control with 180° horizontal coverage Reduced vulnerability to feedback.

Three systems to choose from (Compact, Model 1S, Model II)
Two passive bass module options (B1 or B2)
Consistent coverage and tonal balance, portability and easy setup.

Small venue combo, 4 piece, running three vocal mics, two instrument mics and a digital piano mixed down through a Behringer QX1202, main outs summed to the RCA inputs of the L1 Compact. Trying to isolate problems with volume cuts and swells. Happened now at two different clubs, first time lasted off and on through the first half of the show, then the second time only during the second half of the show. Power connections all were secured and all cords and cables test ok.

No phantom power being used, board channel faders are at 12 O'clock or below, main mix is around -7 db with the L1 at about 1 o'clock position.

Would it be better to use the 3.5mm TRS jack or even the Mic channel? Or split the signal and run the vocals summed from an effects send to the Mic side and just instruments summed through the mains  or however I can separate them through the instrument/CD, MP3 side? The instrument  EQ switch has been switched to Line Level if that makes a difference. Sorry but I'm new to this forum and just haven't been able to find setups others are using. This little jewel has worked great for the past four weeks, but seems to be having trouble now with losing volume then popping back on at High levels. Any suggestions other than buying another unit, are most greatly appreciated!

Original Post

Hi Joyof60,

welcome to the forum. Thanks for joining our community.

Joyof60 posted:

Small venue combo, 4 piece, running three vocal mics, two instrument mics and a digital piano mixed down through a Behringer QX1202, main outs summed to the RCA inputs of the L1 Compact.

3 x Vocal mics + 2 x instrument mics makes 5 mics. As far as I can see the mixer has only 4 mic channels. How are you connecting the mics to the mixer?

At the moment I'll treat that as probably being secondary. I can't say any more unless you can describe in more detail how you've got the mics/piano connected.

Joyof60 posted:

Would it be better to use the 3.5mm TRS jack?

The Compact (as with all L1 systems) is a mono system. This means that it cannot reproduce stereo. There are one or two ways of connecting a mixer carrying different types of signal to the Compact.

One of these would be to pan all instruments/mics to the left side. Then connect the left main out via TRS - TRS cable to the Compact channel 2 and set the switch to line. These are 1/4" (6mm) jacks not 1/8" (3.5mm).

Stereo pianos sometimes have sounds which are mono-compatible. I would be using one of these if possible. I've read that some keyboarders are unsatisfied with their mono sounds. This is something that you have to decide on yourself.

You don't say which digital piano you're using, but most Keyboard outputs are labelled with R  L/MONO as in the photo below.

outputs digital piano

Connect a mono cable to the L/MONO output and connect this to the mixer to one of the MONO/L inputs as in the photo below, and pan this also to the left.

L:MONO Inputs

Balance:Pan poti

Connect the left main out via TRS - TRS cable to the Compact channel 2 and set the switch to line.

I'd set the Trim (Volume) on Channel 2 to 12 o' clock for starters and regulate the overall volume  from the mixer. The Control LED should be kept out of the RED. If it flickers red OK, but try not to have it continuously red. You shouldn't harm the Compact if it does stay in the red, but the protection circuitry in the Compact will Limit the signal. This means that it will not get any louder. If you find that it's not loud enough, then turn up the channel volume on the Compact. Eventually you will however reach the limits of what the Compact is capable of. 

The Compact goes down to 65 Hz. Don't forget that it's not a massive PA. Don't try to compensate for bass by turning up the bass too much on any channel as this is where the most energy lies and the unit will limit the signal and you'll not get it as loud as you'd like to. Using less bass can help here.

The Compact can get pretty loud for its size. I've done a fair number of gigs with my acoustic trio using my Compact. They've all been good and the Compact has never let me down.

Regarding the 5th mic. If you're having to compromise (sharing a channel maybe) then you could always put the 5th directly into the Mic channel (Channel 1) on the Compact. You just wouldn't have any effects on it. I don't use much in the way of effects anyway when using L1 systems. 

Has this been of any help?

Tony

 

 

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Tony, thanks for the response,

We are using SM 58 and 57 mics, I am running the 5th mic (a SM57) through the mono jack of the 5/6 channel. I have been running the piano, a Roland RD300NX, through the 11/12 channel as a stereo signal, out of habit I guess. I don't think running it mono will compromise any tones. I had been considering running the main outs through the Channel 1 (MIC) on the L1 and the piano and guitar (mic'd with a SM 57) directly bypassing the mixer through the L1's channel 2 through the RCA jacks and the 1/4" phone jack respectively. And for that matter with the 3.5mm jack unused the second SM57 instrument Mic could be run through the L1's channel 2 as well, I could balance the signal a bit by adjusting the piano volume at the keyboard itself. (please understand these are intended more as questions than statements, I am a musician, not an engineer)

As for the loudness, the L1 system has more than enough volume for the small venues we play, its just that this past weekend the volume would fade completely out then rapidly re-appear. At the time this was happening I was using both L/R mains, from the 1202 mixer, to the RCA jacks, not that I expected a stereo sound but it appeared to be the only solution at the time in order to not have to use a Y adapter to combine (rather than use an adapter to split) the signals which I was trying to avoid. I haven't even considered only using one side of the Mains with the channels on the 1202 mixer panned hard left. For that matter would it not be feasible to run all vocals panned left and run the left side of the mains to the L1's MIC channel (channel 1) and pan all instruments right and run the right main out to the L1's channel 2 (switched to line level)?

Please accept my utmost appreciation for your time and advice.

Thanks again,

Joyof60

Hi Joyof60,

Joyof60 posted:

Tony, thanks for the response,

We are using SM 58 and 57 mics, I am running the 5th mic (a SM57) through the mono jack of the 5/6 channel.

A microphone has less output than an Instrument (Guitar/Keyboards for example) but if it's working for you it's OK to use the 5/6 channel. 

 

I have been running the piano, a Roland RD300NX, through the 11/12 channel as a stereo signal, out of habit I guess. I don't think running it mono will compromise any tones.

Running the way I suggested is what the inputs and outputs L/MONO are designed for. It also saves on cable connections.

 I haven't even considered only using one side of the Mains with the channels on the 1202 mixer panned hard left. For that matter would it not be feasible to run all vocals panned left and run the left side of the mains to the L1's MIC channel (channel 1) and pan all instruments right and run the right main out to the L1's channel 2 (switched to line level)?
 

Regarding the use of Channel 1 for microphones panned hard to one side, and channel 2 for instruments panned hard to the other side:

This is one of the possibilities I meant when I wrote this:

Seagullman posted:

There are one or two ways of connecting a mixer carrying different types of signal to the Compact.

 

I would have suggested this in my first post, but I didn't know how you were connecting the 5th microphone. You may have been using Channel 1 on the Compact for the 5th microphone. 

If you do pan the mics hard to one side and connect that output to the Microphone channel of the Compact leave the EQ'ing of the mics until you see how the Channel Preset (you can't turn it off) on channel one works with your mics. You might not need to do anything else with EQ. If you do, you can adjust to preference. Using this way I'd pan the microphones to the Right (you're probably going to be using an L/MONO input for the Piano and that will be Left anyway).

You'd then pan the instruments to the left and connect this output via TRS - TRS to channel 2 set to line.

Another way to connect would be pan everything hard left and connect this output via TRS - TRS to channel 2 set to line. You could then connect the SM 57 (guitar) to channel 1 and give it the benefit of having a real microphone preamp.

Your suggestions/thoughts regarding the use of the 3.5mm input on channel 2 isn't a way that I'd even consider going especially not for a microphone as this would limit how loud you can run channel 2 (only until the microphone starts feeding back.

Keep it as simple as you can. You've got enough inputs on your mixer for everything that you're wanting to use (with maybe the exception of the SM 57 but that seems to be working for you). Using the other inputs on Channel 2 for instruments complicates things and I'd only use them at a pinch.

Either:

1: panning mics hard right and then to channel 1 and the instruments hard left and then to channel 2 set to line     OR

2: Everything panned hard left and then to channel 2 set to line, with the SM 57 going directly into Channel 1 (which is the way I'd probably go).

The less complicated you make it, the easier it is to keep it under control.

Now I'd like to speak to this as ST has asked how old your system is, and I think he's trying to cover the possibility of the Compact maybe having some kind of defect (which I've not covered up to now):

Joyof60 posted:

As for the loudness, the L1 system has more than enough volume for the small venues we play, its just that this past weekend the volume would fade completely out then rapidly re-appear. At the time this was happening I was using both L/R mains, from the 1202 mixer, to the RCA jacks, not that I expected a stereo sound but it appeared to be the only solution at the time in order to not have to use a Y adapter to combine (rather than use an adapter to split) the signals which I was trying to avoid. I haven't even considered only using one side of the Mains with the channels on the 1202 mixer panned hard left.

What sometimes happens when you put the left and right signals of a stereo source together is that noise cancelling can happen. I'll try to explain this as simply as I can:

Imagine having 10$ in one hand and a bill for 10$ in the other hand. Put together your assets are zero. With a stereo signal being summed to mono by just connecting them directly together something similar can happen. Sometimes the 2 signals are 180° out of phase with each other, which means that where one of them has a positive value, the other has the same value but negative. When these two come together for the same source the volume will drop (fade). I'm not saying that this is what happened, but it may be what happened.

If you have the chance to set up and play in a gig sized room I'd try out the suggestions I've made here to see if the unit is working  OK (the same room would be even better as you'd have many of the things the same as at the gig, but if not that's OK too). If everything works as it should do, then you've probably solved the problem. If not, then it may be time to call Bose. I think that this is probably why ST asked about the age of the unit to see if it was still under guarantee.

Regarding your music. Would you like to tell us a little bit about it (we can sometimes be a nosey bunch here ). You don't have to tell us, but if you'd like to I for one am all ears. Thanks.

With regard to this:

Please accept my utmost appreciation for your time and advice.

Thanks again,

Joyof60

You're more than welcome to any help or advice that we can give you on the forum.

I hope that this has been of some help. If the unit still persists to fade in volume it may need looking at.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks again for the reply and help, greatly appreciated.

I do understand the cancelling effect of signals/sound waves out of phase which is why my initial use of the channel 2 on the L1 was to use the RCA jacks somehow thinking they would stay separate, not sure how I thought that could happen in a mono unit but Bose has been doin wonderful things in unconventional ways for many years now. I am an advocate of all their products and own many, wave, acoustic wave, headphones, ear buds etc., herein another reason I have owned the L1 compact for some time just haven't had the venue to use it until recently. This weekend I will try panning for separation as you suggested, with a backup PA on hand just in case. The volume problem may have indeed just been a phase issue.

As for the music, we are a bit unconventional as well, primarily a four piece, with piano, electric guitar, acoustic guitar, banjo and fiddle, with three doing vocals and harmony. ( the acoustic guitar and fiddle both double on banjo) All are mic'd, except for the electric guitar and piano, with SM58's for vocals and two SM57's on the acoustic guitar and fiddle. The same are used when they play banjo respectively.  We are older, except for the fiddle player who is quite young but an extreme talent.  We play a variety of Bluegrass, old country favorites and old standards. It seems to please the crowds and we have a good time. We play small clubs and cafe's in the northern Arkansas area and go by The New Country Grass Band. We have all been very active in promoting the culture of bluegrass and folk music in the area for a number of years even though our blend and styling is a bit different it does attract some of the younger audiences thus promoting  an appreciation of the culture across the strains of generations.

Thanks again for your help and interest, I'll let you know how it fares this weekend. Thanks once more!

Keith

Hi Keith,

actually the RCA's/3.5mm should sum to mono well because this is what Bose suggests using for iPhones etc. I wasn't thinking straight there. 

If you can, set up the Compact somewhere and feed it with mp3's (Channel 2 RCA or 3.5mm Input. If possible also run it a bit louder than normal living room volume. If it's OK there it should be OK at a gig.

As I suggested in my last post:

" Everything panned hard left and then to channel 2 set to line, with the SM 57 going directly into Channel 1 (which is the way I'd probably go)."

That way I'd be certain that I'm getting enough volume for the microphone. If, however you're happy with the volume of it going into channel 5/6 OK. Panning hard left, I would be running it through the L/MONO channel of that stereo pair.

Thanks very much for your band information.

Joyof60 posted:

We have all been very active in promoting the culture of bluegrass and folk music in the area for a number of years even though our blend and styling is a bit different it does attract some of the younger audiences thus promoting  an appreciation of the culture across the strains of generations.

 

I find this attitude to be really positive. The more interest we can generate for our particular types of music the better the chances are of there being a next generation to carry on the Legacy. 

This weekend I will try panning for separation as you suggested, with a backup PA on hand just in case. The volume problem may have indeed just been a phase issue.
 

I like the idea of a back up PA until your sure about the Compact. I've got a system here (a pretty good one actually) which I keep in reserve just in case my L1's should fail. It's a Sub/Satellite system which sounds good. The Satellite loudspeakers are OK at 7.5 Kilos each, but the Sub weighs in at 32 kilos which I don't want to have to carry around any more.

In case you're interested what I've actually put through a Compact with my acoustic trio here's a couple of links to articles I've

I've just had a thought. At the gigs where you had the problems. Were there maybe a lot of things being used that need a fair amount of power? Those could be, for instance large electric grills, ovens, ..... basically anything that uses a fair amount of power. In such cases it can happen that the voltage that the Compact would like to have isn't always there. The Bose systems are sometimes a bit discerning when it comes to dodgy power supplies.

As I said that's just a thought. I've never had any problems like that over here in Germany, but we have pretty stable power grids over here, and pretty stringent rules regarding power installations in houses/buildings. I have read about such things on the forum though and know that some users swear by the use of power conditioners.

Please let me know how you get on, and as I've already said, you're welcome to any help or advice that I can give you.

Tony

Sorry to cont. with the drama here, but should Channel 1 be considerably hotter than channel 2? I was able to recreate the power/volume drop while playing the piano through channel 2 and changed to the channel 1, just panned over with the trims both set a twelve o'clock and got a tremendous  volume boost, like 10db or better. Is that normal, we've never really tried that much with channel 1, but you had mentioned in an earlier post that running the mic that I had running through one of the stereo channels, into channel one and getting the benefit of a preamp, I was thinking that may be the reason for the boost. The SM 58's and 57's don't really require a preamp but this seemed to be a great difference. Is this normal?

Hi Joyof60,

Joyof60 posted:

Sorry to cont. with the drama here, but should Channel 1 be considerably hotter than channel 2? I was able to recreate the power/volume drop while playing the piano through channel 2 and changed to the channel 1, just panned over with the trims both set a twelve o'clock and got a tremendous  volume boost, like 10db or better. Is that normal,

Yes, that's completely normal. The input sensitivity of Channel 1 is higher than Channel 2 (1/4" inch input).

we've never really tried that much with channel 1, but you had mentioned in an earlier post that running the mic that I had running through one of the stereo channels, into channel one and getting the benefit of a preamp, I was thinking that may be the reason for the boost. The SM 58's and 57's don't really require a preamp but this seemed to be a great difference. Is this normal?

Yes.

ST

Hi Keith,

Regarding the sensitivity of channel 1 compared to channel 2, ST has already answered this question. This is also why I suggested putting your 5th microphone through this channel should channel 5/6 on your mixer not manage to get the SM 57 loud enough.

If you use this for panning all microphones to one side and putting them through channel 1 you can compensate for the extra sensitivity by keeping the signal going into it a little "cooler".

One thing to remember with channel 1 is that it has a Tonematch EQ for a microphone on it which can not be switched off. This means that everything going through this channel will be EQ'ed for a microphone which could make everything other than microphones sound a bit strange.

Joyof60 posted:

I was able to recreate the power/volume drop while playing the piano through channel 2 

When you managed this, did you notice anything in particular? Were you running a pretty hot signal to the Compact? Here are the input signal specs. If you exceed these levels the Compact protective circuitry should start limiting. Was the Input LED on Channel 2 going into the red for example. This is something to avoid. Once you've got the input signal combined with the channel volume as high as you can without the LED turning red you've reached the limits of what the Compact can do. Is it only when using the piano that you get the drop in volume, or with other things too? 

If it's just the piano it could well have something to do with the frequencies coming from the piano (bass frequencies have the most energy, and reducing the bass can give you more headroom (volume) for the higher frequencies.

Below you'll find the Max Input Signal levels for Channel 2 on the Compact.

  • Max Input Signal:
    • 1/4" = +12 dBu
    • 1/8" = +12dBu
    • RCA = +12 dBu

Does that help?

Tony

Thanks again Tony, and yes, all of your input has helped.

I have never had the compact in the red except for when we first broke it out just to see how hot it would actually go. Currently I am trying to reproduce the volume cut with the elimination of other possibilities, i.e. Bypassing the mixer, using a different keyboard.

I had read in a post somewhere here that the 1/4" input of channel 2 was a 'balanced Mono' input. Is this still accepting of a TRS "Stereo" input as that is the only balanced phone cable I am aware of.

also in reference to channel 1 being EQ'd internally for microphones, was 'vocals' intended here or actually 'microphones' in general as many instruments are amplified with microphones as well? Sorry for the question on semantics but I'm trying to wrap my head around the internal EQ of each channel. I do understand or assume that the EQ of channel 2 is easily defeated by using the 'line' switch.  As we usually mic the acoustic instruments with the 57's which have a bit broader frequency range, usually the instruments mixer channels are run 'flat' so there is no signal difference that we have found between using a stereo channel or using a potentially pre amped channel with an EQ so leaving channel 1 open for a single microphone doesn't seem necessary at all.

thanks again so much for your continued response and time with assistance.

Keith

Hi Keith,
 
Joyof60 posted:

Thanks again Tony, and yes, all of your input has helped.

I have never had the compact in the red except for when we first broke it out just to see how hot it would actually go.

OK I can understand you wanting to do this.

Currently I am trying to reproduce the volume cut with the elimination of other possibilities, i.e. Bypassing the mixer, using a different keyboard.

Are you having any success along these lines. From what you're writing it appears that the "loss of volume" is not always there.

I had read in a post somewhere here that the 1/4" input of channel 2 was a 'balanced Mono' input. Is this still accepting of a TRS "Stereo" input as that is the only balanced phone cable I am aware of.

Correct. A balanced mono cable here is a TRS cable. The 1/4" input channel of Channel 2 will accept either a 1/4" mono cable (guitar cable) or a 1/4" TRS cable (stereo cable). The advantage of the TRS (balanced) is that it's not as susceptible to interference as a cable which isn't balanced. There is one other advantage that I remember reading, but can't put a finger on where I read it (maybe the Wiki but that's still undergoing maintenance), is that using a TRS cable will give a 6dB higher signal into the Compact.

also in reference to channel 1 being EQ'd internally for microphones, was 'vocals' intended here or actually 'microphones' in general as many instruments are amplified with microphones as well? Sorry for the question on semantics but I'm trying to wrap my head around the internal EQ of each channel.

Now that really is a good question, and as you're already pointing out semantics, I can't give you an absolute answer on this one as I've never really considered it. I've always looked at it as being EQ'ed for a Hand Held Microphone which it probably is, but I wouldn't bet my pension on it.

Here's what I can find at the moment. I'm giving you a link to the Owner's Manual + a screenshot I've just made from part of page 8 of the Manual.

http://products.bose.com/pdf/c...rs/og_l1_compact.pdf

Page 8 Compact Manual

I do understand or assume that the EQ of channel 2 is easily defeated by using the 'line' switch.  

This is correct, and important if your running anything other than an acoustic guitar through Channel 2.

As we usually mic the acoustic instruments with the 57's which have a bit broader frequency range, usually the instruments mixer channels are run 'flat' so there is no signal difference that we have found between using a stereo channel or using a potentially pre amped channel with an EQ so leaving channel 1 open for a single microphone doesn't seem necessary at all.

Whatever works for you Keith. Whatever we discuss on the forum is always without being there where the problem is. Whenever I answer a question I try to obtain as much detail as I can and then I make a few suggestions. Not all the suggestions I (or anyone else on the forum for that matter) will work for everyone. I try to to work around different scenarios and hope that at least one of them will help the person asking.

None of us interprets things exactly the same as another person. EQ'ing for instance is a very subjective thing. No 2 professional sound engineers will EQ exactly the same. I always hope that I can lead a person with a question along lines that will help him/her to eventually find a solution to the problem.

Unfortunately none of us here on the forum has supernatural powers (that I know of), so we don't necessarily have an answer to every single question posed here. We do, however manage to find an answer to most questions, even if the last resort is the person with the problem having to call Bose Service (in the USA toll free) because the Unit could be faulty, and from what I've heard up to now, there are really nice guys (musicians) at the other end of the line with loads of patience and ready to help.

thanks again so much for your continued response and time with assistance.

Keith

As always, you're very welcome. I hope that you manage to find a/the solution to your problem with the help that the forum can give you.

I'll be very interested to hear of any progress you make. This is maybe something that others may learn from. If I "deal" with a question/problem here that I've not come across before and we manage to get to the bottom of it, it's another piece of useful information that I may be able to pass on at a later date.

Tony

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Thanks again Tony, 

Again, please understand that my statements are generally meant as questions stated to be sure if my thinking is correct. I'm one of those people who know enough to know how much they don't know. That should make me teachable, which I am more than eager for.  The rationale for the 57 going into the stereo channel was thrown in to see if we are thinking correctly here. As is true with a lot, just because I can make it make sense in my head, doesn't make it correct I have sadly found to often.. 

Tonight there was no problem with volume loss, and yes, this is not a constant problem, it just surfaced last weekend and did it two nights back to back in different venues and did it sporadically.  Nothing constant for sure and to the point of making it difficult to reproduce. You had stated earlier about other large power draws at the facility. (Electric grills etc.) Both clubs that we played last weekend, (and also tonight) have large kitchens with many large appliances. Truely a factor here I need to learn more about. Wondering if maybe a 'power conditioner' would be benificial?

We also think we did benifit from some cleaner seperation (if that's possible) by panning vocals separate from instruments. Super Kudos from the whole band for that suggestion!

thanks again so very much!

Keith

Hi Keith,

Joyof60 posted:

Thanks again Tony, 

Again, please understand that my statements are generally meant as questions stated to be sure if my thinking is correct. I'm one of those people who know enough to know how much they don't know. That should make me teachable, which I am more than eager for.  The rationale for the 57 going into the stereo channel was thrown in to see if we are thinking correctly here. As is true with a lot, just because I can make it make sense in my head, doesn't make it correct I have sadly found to often.. 

With your apparent interest to learn as much as you can, I can warmly recommend you have a look around in the Wiki. At the moment it's still apparently undergoing maintenance so it can't be accessed. At the beginning I was an extremely regular visitor there and learned a lot of stuff. I'm still there pretty regularly but I don't need to look for advice as much as I used to. The Wiki however never really ceases to surprise me with the amount of knowledge available there.

The link to it is at the top of every page where it says: Encyclopedia/Wiki. It really is worth going there. Sometimes you may find answers to questions that you didn't even know existed 

Regarding the SM 57 going into one of the stereo channels (which doesn't have a dedicated microphone preamp): If it works for you there's no rule that says you can't use it although it's not something I would do myself unless I was really pushed for inputs. There's not really a right or wrong here. 

Tonight there was no problem with volume loss, and yes, this is not a constant problem, it just surfaced last weekend and did it two nights back to back in different venues and did it sporadically.  Nothing constant for sure and to the point of making it difficult to reproduce. You had stated earlier about other large power draws at the facility. (Electric grills etc.) Both clubs that we played last weekend, (and also tonight) have large kitchens with many large appliances. Truely a factor here I need to learn more about. Wondering if maybe a 'power conditioner' would be benificial?

Regarding the Electric grills etc. it's just something I've read here on the Forum but have no personal experience with. I'm pretty sure there'll be something about it in the Wiki (but we can't access that just now). 

Whether or not a power conditioner would be beneficial is a question I can't answer as I've never needed one. It can't hurt to have one, but I'm sure that there are loads of them on the market. It's just finding the best one for your personal needs I would have thought. There's bound to be guys here on the forum who can answer this question better than I can.

We also think we did benifit from some cleaner seperation (if that's possible) by panning vocals separate from instruments. Super Kudos from the whole band for that suggestion!

If I understand correctly you mean panning the mics to the right and connecting the right output to Channel 1 and panning the instruments to the left and connecting that output to Channel 2 set to line?

If you're noticing a difference, it could be the integrated Tonematch preset on Channel 1 that's making the difference. 

thanks again so very much!

Keith

As always, you're welcome.

Keep me informed, and have a nice weekend.

Tony

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