curious. i still have yet to get the new presets loaded. hope to borrow a dvd this week to get it done, and try some first. if i were to use an equalizer between my guitar and the pas channel 1 or 2. more of the rack variety opposed to a stomp box. would it be better to use the insert point for the eq hookup, or just go into the eq and into the cannel input. or would it make any differnce. thanks to any comments
to clarify a bit, meaning on the insert point using a tip ring sleeve as a send and return to the insert and back to the eq,which would feed i guess the pas pre signal to the eq. i didnt mean just to run the eq into the insert with a regular cable.
I am still getting lots of hiss/hum on inputs 3&4 at any level over 9 o'clock.

I traded off my 2 Behringer UB2442 mixers and bought new mackies, a 1642VLZ and a 1402 VLZ, one for studio, one for live w/Bose. Both have the same amount of hiss/hum into the Bose when sending the signal out of Aux 2 (Post EQ).

I am using unbalanced 1/4 to 1/4 cables.
Have also tried Balanced 1/4 TRS to XLR cable, then into an impedance transformer. Same result.

Sending signal out of Main L or R XLR sends has same results. I just can't get anything over 9 o'clock without quite noticable hiss or hum.

Tried a passive direct box also, to no avail.

Am thinking of buying a Behringer DI-100 active box and seeing if it will work, but am hesitant to throw more money at the problem.

I AM able to still get JUST enough signal out of my mixers so that the 9 o'clock position provides enough volume. But I just don't get why I can't turn the Bose up any more than this.

When I run my Bass POD into 3 or 4, i can turn it up all the way w/NO noise. I can't figure out why mixers can't do it.
Hi Pete,

When you say 9 o'clock position - do you mean, on the Master on the Remote?

You may have described this in more detail somewhere but I can't remember for sure.

Have you tried running into the Bose system with the trims set all the way down on the channels being fed by the Mackie?

You then have set the outputs on the Mackie so that the you get a good solid green light on the trim peak indicator light.
wfs,

I'd suggest that you try the new presets before going to a lot of trouble with an equalizer.

As far as using the Insert Point or putting the EQ inline between the guitar and the Power Stand, I can't imagine that done correctly, it would matter much either way.

But try the new presets first.


quote:
Originally posted by wfs:
to clarify a bit, meaning on the insert point using a tip ring sleeve as a send and return to the insert and back to the eq,which would feed i guess the pas pre signal to the eq. i didnt mean just to run the eq into the insert with a regular cable.
Drumr,

Up till now I hadn't tried to utilize 3 and 4 with a mixer, but felt compelled to give it a try after reading your post.

I have to say it is not your mixers, because my otherwise completely quiet Alesis is not quiet through channels 3 and 4.

With some experimenting I was able to get acceptable levels by pushing the mixer to the clipping point at both the input gain and the main output, and PAS channels 3 and 4 gain set between 0 and 2. This was not completely without hiss, just acceptable signal/noise ratio.

I really don't want to guess at what the difference is, but, it must be related to the difference in the high quality preamps/balanced inputs (even when using unbalanced) in channels 1 and 2 vs. the standard line level inputs of 3 and 4.

I wonder if this helps to explain some of the different opinions that have been expressed on this subject.

Have you tried your mixers through 1 and 2 to see if the result is the same?

wfs,

I would try both ways and use the quietest one. As long as the EQ is in series I don't think it matters much.

Oldghm
quote:
Originally posted by ST:

Have you tried running into the Bose system with the trims set all the way down on the channels being fed by the Mackie?

You then have set the outputs on the Mackie so that the you get a good solid green light on the trim peak indicator light.


ST and Drumr

If nothing else is changed except the input from channel 1 or 2 going to channel 3 or 4 on the PS1 with all input gains at 0, there is a considerable difference in overall volume, suggesting that inputs 1 and 2 are more sensitive than 3 or 4.

Although I haven't tried it in the real world, with some instruments/vocals going direct into PS1 channels 1 and 2 and other instruments mixed and then into channels 3 and 4, I think it would be difficult to get proper gain staging on all and still have a good mix level controlled by the remote Master. Perhaps not impossible, but difficult.

Drumr, I know that you prefer to run your kick directly to the PAS to utilize the mic preset. Have you tried (out of curiosity) to run through the mixer and send other instruments or vocals to the same preset?

While the Bose guys have done a great job of specializing the presets, in the end they are just EQ curves, not dedicated electronic devices that will self distruct if used for another purpose. Might be worth a try, to simplify your setup.

Oldghm
I don't want to use channels 1&2 for my mixer as those are needed for kick drum & vocal Presets.

I am running remote master at noon.

Okay, as long as everyone else is only able to get to about 9 o'clock on the channel 3/4 gain, then i'm in the same ballpark.

LIke I said...i have just enough volume. I just thought the gain should go higher, since it does running a device such as the POD into it.

I am running mackies at pretty much UNITY GAIN, and getting nice strong signals off the board.
thanks,
Pete
Pete,

Still not understanding - 9 o'clock on what?

Also - just ignore the unity gain business on the Mackie. Just crank it up as high as you can without clipping the Mackie.

You *should* be able to get a relatively quiet signal chain

Have you tried this?
Run as hot as you can from the Mackie without clipping the outputs.
Set the Trims at zero on channels 3/4 on the Bose system.


How does it sound?
ST,

Setting the trims at 0 (off) on channels 3/4 means "almost" NO SIGNAL, very, very low level.

I am running the Trims on Bose PS1 channel 3 at 9 o'clock right now, for my mixer. I DO have enough gain from the mackie for my purpose. I'm not sure why I am complaining. I just thought the gain trim on the PS1 channels 3/4 should have more headroom. I do have sufficient level.

It's working, I should drop the subject Smile
Pete


Bose PS1 channel 4 is at 1 o'clock for the Bass POD and has no hiss or hum.
Drumr is right: On channel 3 and 4 setting the trim to 0 will results in NO OUTPUT.
That's different from channel 1 and 2 were even with the trim all the way down and/or the channel volume all the way down you get a some (if very small) signal.
So you have to make sure that the trims on Channel 3 and 4 are at least a little above 0.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
Thanks guys,

I've been meaning to just walk over and hookup a mixer to channels 3 and 4 to check this out. I know that I have had pretty good luck getting rid of noise by running very low on the trims and hot from the sound source.

I get it now.

Thanks
I'll throw one more "wrench" into this discussion about noise/hiss. Due to the wide dispersion nature of the PAS radiator I've noticed that it's easier to hear this stuff even if it's at a fairly low threshold compared to the "intelligence" audio signal.

In other words, for the same reason you can hear vox/instrument from across the stage and/or room, you will also hear noise, if any, from your input connections.

As has been noted, the best way to minimize this is to keep the signal from your outboard gear as hot as possible without clipping the PAS channel inputs.
question . the other day i was foolin with the efects send and return on ch 1 and 2. mostly with some electric guitar effects and an se-70.
was just seeing howe things would react if i pre'd first and then went to the efect.
i noticed on a couple of occasions that the remote channel indicator showed clipping in red. but when i looked at the pas trim level light, it was not clipping in red at all. i thought they kind of worked together, meaning if the remote went into the red so would the trim light on the pas base. any thoughts on this welcome as always.
wfs - I don't know the "schematics" of the system that well (and I'm not nearly as gracious as ST to go and look it up for you - you can do that yourself) - but I would guess that the first LED indicator tells you that your incoming signal (the guitar plugged into the channel) is okay. The tap for the loop is most likely taken after the channel's preamp, so the LED indicator on the remote is telling you that the level of the effect in the loop is off. Gain staging, gain staging.

Think of it like this - you're adjusting the trim for your incoming signal to be as strong as possible right up front - when you tap that signal to send it to your effects unit, you want to try to maintain the integrity of that signal as close as possible to the original signal strength. So you need to be very careful about trying to make your effects unit as transparent as possible. If the SE-70 has "in" and "out" level controls with LED's, that is where you'd want to make the adjustments.
thanks gittar, it was the only thing i could figure. but got somewhat confused by the posts about the leds matching. but then again they were not using the insert.
the se 70 has input gain selection with trims. either -20 or +4. out put is adjusted by master volume in menu within a patch.
thanks for the direction, it is easy enough to stop the clipping. was just curious..and really didnt hear any noticeable distortion etc. but im sure it was right on the edge..thanks
Mr. Jonz is right (as always). The LED on the remote is after the insert loop. Depending on how much energy the signal gains (or looses) in the loop, the LEDs on the power stand and on the remote get out of sync.

Unfortunately, there isn't any easy way to set an effects processor to "unity gain". Observing the two LEDs might help with that.

In general it's not a big deal if any LED goes occasionally red, since there is still some headroom. Only if you see red pretty frequently, it's advisable to turn down.

Hope that helps

Hilmar
thanks hilmar, guess its just that red that concerns ya. but i have noticed as you said, there is a bit of headroom after the red, but using the ears its certainly easy to tell distortion. seems the best for my scenario is to set the pas trim as high as possible to feed the efects, and to just get a barely blinkin light on the input of the effercts from the send. then adjust the master within the patch to adjust the return to match the remote led, but thanks for clearin it up too...

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