classic L1 failure

FrownTonight I set up my classic L1 double bass plugged in all my stuff ,turned it on and started playing.( same setup same way I always do).Then 30 seconds into the first song a loud "clicking " sound started, it clicked about 4 times then the volume went real low then silence. I shut off the L1 then turned it back on and the same episode happened. All the signals going into the 4 channels were good. All the lights stayed either green or red within normal limits like always. I could find no reason why this was happening. After an intense search of possible problems I now think it might have been the remote cable or the remote itself. I placed the cable in the other end of the remote and now things seem OK. I played for about 40 minutes with no problems.
I think the key to this event is the 'clicking' sound I heard. As if the L1 was trying to process some algorithm.Has anyone else ever heard this clicking sound and what could be another reason this happened..
I am going to order a new remote & cable hoping this is an easy fix. I hope I am right. Just need some at-bose advice to see if I'm on the right track or if iam just helplessly hoping.....thanks harry

Dancing Dog Muse

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DDM,

I'm sorry this happened. I know what it's like to have equipment problems and it is no fun. No fun at all.

Work with the PTS folks (877/335-2673). I think your plan is a good one to try a new remote and cable. You could try running the unit without the remote plugged in to see if the problem stays away. Did you try wiggling the remote cable to see if that triggered the crackling?

Let us know here how things turn out, and if we can be of any assistance.

Ken
DDM,

From reading your account it certainly sounds like a remote or remote cable problem. I am sure that will clear things up for you. The powerstand itself is probably fine.

Since it is intermittent I would suspect the cable first and foremost.

As Ken mentioned, try running the unit with no remote for a while and see if the problem stays away.

Sorry to hear you had an issue...
MikeZ
Folks might remember that I had an issue with the L1 a few weeks ago, and it seemed to resolve itself, but this past Saturday night it just fried itself. I'll be dragging it up to California Ave. this week sometime. It'll be interesting to see what happened internally.
RazzWell, guys..i think the problem is solved. Look at the picture.B1 cable.
This was unseen to the naked eye. After ordering a new remote & cable and getting them today I cranked up the system and darn, it happened again. After tearing down the system and moving it into another room, setting it back up..i found a b1 cable not working thus no bass..horrible sound for me. Decided to look inside and redo the cable connections.Got one wire out,restripped it and the whole cable broke off. I had looked at the connections a few days ago and all seemed secure.nice and tight so I figured it was not a B1 cable. This beak was inside the cable unseen to the eye and had no marks/damage to the outside. Tonight ordered two new B1 cables..don't want to worry about this again...I fixed this cable, turned the system on..all was good, played for an hour at a very high volume( my wife understood my recent L1 distress and did not mind the whole house shaking. As she said just get those bad vibes out of your system and then be happy.(not sure if she meant me or the L1).I did not write about this L1 problem to complain but to share info and try to get knowledge about it. Communication is the only way to find answers. I want to thank Kevin from customer support for his great service. They treated me right even when I did not ask or expect it. I have owned this L1 for 3 years and Bose still treats me like I just brought it today. Thanks again to Ken & Mike Z.Your reply to my post made me feel not alone in my little journey. I have a gig this Saturday so I'll report back on the final outcome....thanks ,harry
Smile
Dancing Dog Muse
Hey guys,

I've had ALL of my B1 cables do this exact thing.I ordred back ups and they still did it.
I repaired all of them, but the best I can figure is this happens when you push them up against a wall, the retainer-clip-bracket-thingy cuts into the cord. I have been very careful not to push them up against a wall and I haven't had the problem since !

Hope this helps.

Mike
quote:
hat's a good point, Stratman - I push mine back against the wall all the time. I wonder if anyone makes a 90 degree right angle Speakon connector... might be worth looking into.


Neutrik makes a conversion kit for the NL4FX to turn it into a right angle version. The part number is LRX but it should not be required in most cases.

The "retainer-clip-bracket-thingy" should be grabbing the cable jacket and not the four conductor jackets. I've never seen such a failure when the cable is prepped correctly. In some cases, with the cable properly prepped but with the strained relief insufficiently tightened, it is possible for the cable jacket to be pulled back beyond the strain relief fingers thus allowing the above reported failure to occur.
Also note that the correct screwdriver for tightening the wire retaining screws is a #1 Pozidriv not a #2 Phillips. Yes a number two Phillips seems to fit but it is only contacting at the outer edges of the slots.

Although they are difficult to find, all B1 owners wishing to maintain their own cables should own a #1 Pozidriv screw driver or bit (1/4" hex type). The bits are probably easier to find. The 2" long bits are usually better 1" long bits as they usually have a reduced shank thus having better clearance making it easier to turn the screws.

More info on the subject can be found on Wikipedia.
EekGeez statman,that news don't make me feel any better...all your B1 cables?
I can say that I have never pushed any B1's up to the back of a wall where the cables were touching the wall. In fact I have gone to extreme measures to prevent any rough handling of these cables. Not a mark on them. Here is a picture of a good B1 cable and the location where the broken wires were found. The housings were all seated correctly. I believe this is more of a manufacture defect problem than musician error. besides.... A cable like that should never break the way it did. At least now i know the warning signs of such an event and can be cataloged in case it happens to someone elseDancing Dog Muse
Hi ST..feel free to use the picture for wiki Smile
Hi Mark (Le5)

Here are some more details about the LRX



Neutrik LRX Right Angle Speakon Conversion Kit


If you can't find that, get the whole connector.



Neutrik 4 pole right-angle cable connector

--== click the picture to see it in context ==--

This is the Neutrik NL4FRX

quote:


4 pole right-angle cable connector, chuck type strain relief, dark grey bushing

The industry-standard for loudspeaker connections offer extremely reliable and robust cable connectors with a reliable locking system. They feature solid contacts with screw-type terminals including a stranded wire protection which offer also solder termination.



This looks like a really easy retrofit.
Assembly Instructions PDF
Thanks ST,

I should have included the links to the Neutrik site.

Hi dancingdogmuse,

Looking at second picture and then zooming in of the first, I would suspect that a right angle connector might not be a complete solution. The second picture shows that the strain relief was correctly positioned over the cable jacket. And as the arrow indicate in the second picture with a closer inspection of the first picture (the piece of cable jacket that has been removed appears to be rotated 180 degrees) it seams that the failure has occurred at the tip of the strain relief fingers.

As I indicated earlier, I have never seen such a failure and I deal with many hundred of NL4 cables. The reason I suspect that a right angle connector might not be a complete solution is that the tip of the strain relief fingers remains the same with respect to where the cable exits the connector. This may be a case of the strain relief being over tightened or an issue with cable insulation material.

I will check my B1 cables tonight as well as some non Bose NL4 cables today and report back.

As for the symptoms you described:
quote:
30 seconds into the first song a loud "clicking " sound started, it clicked about 4 times then the volume went real low then silence.


Seeing the great pictures you posted, I suspect some of the severed wires shifted slightly and shorted against the other wires. This could have connected the B1 amplifier to the B1 detection circuit and the symptoms you experienced were the PS1 protecting itself. At least this sounds plausible to me Smile
Hi dancingdogmuse,

I inspected my B1 cables last Wednesday by loosening the strain relief and sliding it away for the connector. I then held the NL4FX connector in one hand and slid back the overall blue cable jacket with the other hand to expose the area beneath the strain relief fingers. Everything was fine. I slid back the overall blue cable jacket to its original position and reassembled the connectors. Note that my oldest cable is only a year old.

Is it possible that you have bent your cables in subfreezing temperatures before they have had a chance to warm up from the cold? It is possible that the conductor jackets become brittle below freezing temperature. In cold temperatures I have always unpacked my cables first and let them warm up before I connect them.
Hi there,

I thought it might be useful at this point to have a non-technical observation thrown in. As you may have realized from some of my other posts, 'non-technical' is my speciality area.

I know from years of packing and unpacking cables that we all have different ways of folding or tying them up. Could it be that with these B1 cables that the length of them makes it a bit akward and there may be strain put on the wires at that very breaking point in an effort to fold the connectors through the loop?

I know I have read about these B1 cables failing in the past so I just gently fold mine in half and never even tie them into a loop.

Just a suggestion, Gordon.
Thanks Mike,

Process of elimination: not temperature related.

It may be difficult to narrow in on this one. In the meantime I would suggest that anyone wishing to avoid potential issues in the middle of a show to perform some routine inspection of their systems including cables. For cables this can be done manually by opening the connectors or using a good cable tester that has LED that stay on giving you time to manipulate the cable in order to detect intermittent faults.

As Gordon suggested, be kind to your cables at the end of the gig. I will build myself a shorter cable to link my two B1s.
My lead singer accidentally plugged my second B1 cable in the Amp out, rather than using the second cable to connect two B1's togethor. (major confusion with multiple people plugging things in), During warmup, I heard a clicking noise, static, overdriven, we had never experienced this before. I quickly recognized we had no bottom end. I quickly turned the master volume down, looked over and saw the extra b1 cable plugged in to Amp out#3 I believe. After removing the connector and properly connecting my B1's (this is a weekly routine for me and illustrates it's less confusing with each musician setting up his own L1/B1)I then recycled the power on my L1. I remember a discussion in this forum about the crossover in the PS1 not engaging if it doesn't since a B1 is connected. Unfortnately, my L1's were inserted as well, I got nervous quick, especially with only one more Bose payment to make. LOL. After rechecking all connectors, and power cycling, everything returned normal.

Gigging proudly for 11 months with 4 B1's. The greatest attribute of making this change (aside from the clarity) is the scalability. We (4 piece band) have played using 1, 2, 3 & 4. Depending on the size of the location. And we always have the same sound, unlike when you mix and match pieces of a traditional 3 tier pa.

Todd
Big GrinHey all..just to update .. I have played a couple real gigs with no problems since finding that broken B1 cable. I have also played just about every day in my little studio with no problems. In fact I think the sound is better. The positive aspect of this
broken B1 journey was a re visiting of all my guitar/vocal set ups. On the vocal side I spent time and went through every preset and much to my surprise I found the sm58 preset to my liking. On the guitar side I sat down with my xtlive and changed a few settings much to my liking. Yes, it took time and patience. When there are so many different choices it is worth it to experiment.
I don't know why the B1 cable broke like that. I do know it was not from musician abuse. If it happened to me then it could most likely happen to someone else. I almost sent my power stand back to bose ( a major undertaking for me ) if I didn't find the problem. All that stress/work when it was just a broken little cable..go figure..
For me I believe the cable was defected from the manufacture point of origin.
Here is some interesting reading from the Neutrik website
Neutrik website
Neutrik warns on Speakon counterfeiting (2007-05-02)
Neutrik AG announces that following recent raids in China, they continue to pursue those involved with manufacturing, importing or distributing of counterfeit Neutrik products. The most recent operation conducted in China happened on March 28, 2007.

Neutrik is warning that the problem of fake goods does not apply only to finished products. The component market is also being hit by far eastern counterfeiters, and Neutrik's proprietary Speakon connectors has been a prime target for some year.

Norbert Nachbauer, Marekting Director of Neutrik, adds, "We'll get complaints from people saying that they have a plug and it goes into our jack or a brand name product and it doesn't work. Because they see your brand, you're the first person they call."It's not an insignificant problem for Neutrik's customer support: "It's a few phone calls every day, usually. We have to go through a lot of time and effort, and 99% of the time it's not our problem. It's usually a knockoff or an offshore, similar-type product that didn't meet the (right) specifications."Bachmann explains that because the fake components are made of lower grade materials and often to incorrect manufacturing tolerances, connections may not be secure, leading to loss of audio quality and, over time, breakdowns. Fakes will typically use inferior metals, adds Nachbauer, leading to corrosion, oxide deposits and wear. Unlike Neutrik's hard gold contacts, he points out, "A lot of the products that you get particularly from Asian countries use soft gold. That will wear very quickly, and all of a sudden you're down to whatever they utilise as an under-plate. We find also that [knockoffs] break easier when they get stepped on or when they get dropped. They bend and snap easier than metals that we utilise, because the castings aren't as thick, or the screw machining isn't out of the same brass or copper material that we or other brand name connector manufacturers use."Some customers have suffered as a result of using knockoffs. "We've had people experience some severe problems," remarks Bachmann, "where they have blown out their speakers or their amplifiers and arcing has been caused. No one has been seriously injured that we're aware of, but we've seen boxes utilizing knockoffs of that product where the power overheated the box so much that it burned the wood on the back and melted the connector. Confused
Dancing Dog Muse

For the life of me I cannot understand why any manufacturer supplies cables with "straight out" cable path for every application.

Cables coming to the T1 ToneMatch inevitably stick out and then gravity pulls them down creating a crease point where cable enters the plugs.

With right angled plugs fitted - all the cables hang down neatly from the T1 with zero gravitational stress on them.

It's the same at the other end going into the L1 MKII powerbase.

The Bass signal cable comes out with a straight connector only for the cable to then fall over and create a stress fracture (it's also a nice trip lloop hazard) - when a right angled neutrik would prevent all that.

This goes for the ethernet connection cable to and from the T1 and power base - would be so much tidier and with less risk if it were fitted with a right angled plug. I've looked for such a beast and can't find one (for the ethernet connector).

All my other cables have been configured with right angles so nothing sticks out anywhere - even the power cord to the power base.

Have gone to the point where my iPad is also connected with a right angle out of it (no gastly loop) which allows the cable to be neatly tucked in the iPad holder and down to two TRS jacks into chans 4/5. 

I am OCD when it comes to quality of sound, reliability of kit and "sensible" construction when it comes to the practicality of working with kit in environments that can induce problems.

Love my BOSE!

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