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My band has the Bose F1 top/sub system and on occasion we seem to be stressing the subs. The grills are rattling and to the ear the woofers sound stressed, but there also is not a whole lot of impact on the dance floor.

At the same time, there is no indication of limiting or clipping from the speaker. My thought (and hope) would be that the built in limiter should kick in and/or we should see a clip indication before there was the potential for damage to the speaker. I guess it's possible that the limit and clip LEDs are not functioning correctly, but it'd be unlikely to have that issue with both subs, right?

The subs sound 'normal' at moderate volumes so I don't think the drivers are damaged at all. It's just at high levels that we're experiencing this issue. In some cases we are likely asking a bit too much out of the system (bigger system is needed) but I'd like to determine what's going on - or not - with the limit and clip indicators.

Here are some details on the system and set-up:

Subs are run off an auxiliary send (Bus 6), and mains are direct from L/R of mixer (Behringer XR18). 

Channels sent to Sub Aux - Kick, Bass guitar, tracks, toms, playback audio for set breaks.

Kick and bass have channel HPFs of 45hz and 35hz, respectively.

No channels are clipping and the mixer is kept in the green.

Any ideas?

Original Post

Hi PatJonCook,

Welcome to the Bose Portable PA Community.  Thanks for your question and all the great information.

PatJonCook posted:

My band has the Bose F1 top/sub system and on occasion we seem to be stressing the subs. The grills are rattling and to the ear the woofers sound stressed, but there also is not a whole lot of impact on the dance floor.

 If the grills are rattling, you may need to have the F1 Subwoofers serviced.

Please say more about "the woofers sound stressed."



At the same time, there is no indication of limiting or clipping from the speaker. My thought (and hope) would be that the built in limiter should kick in and/or we should see a clip indication before there was the potential for damage to the speaker.

Yes, the limiters should prevent damage to the amps and drivers.

I guess it's possible that the limit and clip LEDs are not functioning correctly, but it'd be unlikely to have that issue with both subs, right?

Agreed, that's unlikely.



The subs sound 'normal' at moderate volumes so I don't think the drivers are damaged at all. It's just at high levels that we're experiencing this issue. In some cases we are likely asking a bit too much out of the system (bigger system is needed) but I'd like to determine what's going on - or not - with the limit and clip indicators.

Here are some details on the system and set-up:

Subs are run off an auxiliary send (Bus 6), and mains are direct from L/R of mixer (Behringer XR18). 

I'm not familiar with the Behring XR18. Are you doing anything with the EQ to emphasize specific frequencies?



Channels sent to Sub Aux - Kick, Bass guitar, tracks, toms, playback audio for set breaks.

Kick and bass have channel HPFs of 45hz and 35hz, respectively.

Set the High Pass Filters (HPFs) at or above 40 Hz. The F1 Subwoofers won't use anything below that, so there's no need to have that content in the signal.



No channels are clipping and the mixer is kept in the green.

Any ideas?

Try reducing the signal output from the Behringer and turning up the volume on the F1 Subwoofers. Does anything change?

ST

ST posted:

Hi PatJonCook,

Welcome to the Bose Portable PA Community.  Thanks for your question and all the great information.

PatJonCook posted:

My band has the Bose F1 top/sub system and on occasion we seem to be stressing the subs. The grills are rattling and to the ear the woofers sound stressed, but there also is not a whole lot of impact on the dance floor.

 If the grills are rattling, you may need to have the F1 Subwoofers serviced.

Please say more about "the woofers sound stressed."



At the same time, there is no indication of limiting or clipping from the speaker. My thought (and hope) would be that the built in limiter should kick in and/or we should see a clip indication before there was the potential for damage to the speaker.

Yes, the limiters should prevent damage to the amps and drivers.

I guess it's possible that the limit and clip LEDs are not functioning correctly, but it'd be unlikely to have that issue with both subs, right?

Agreed, that's unlikely.



The subs sound 'normal' at moderate volumes so I don't think the drivers are damaged at all. It's just at high levels that we're experiencing this issue. In some cases we are likely asking a bit too much out of the system (bigger system is needed) but I'd like to determine what's going on - or not - with the limit and clip indicators.

Here are some details on the system and set-up:

Subs are run off an auxiliary send (Bus 6), and mains are direct from L/R of mixer (Behringer XR18). 

I'm not familiar with the Behring XR18. Are you doing anything with the EQ to emphasize specific frequencies?



Channels sent to Sub Aux - Kick, Bass guitar, tracks, toms, playback audio for set breaks.

Kick and bass have channel HPFs of 45hz and 35hz, respectively.

Set the High Pass Filters (HPFs) at or above 40 Hz. The F1 Subwoofers won't use anything below that, so there's no need to have that content in the signal.



No channels are clipping and the mixer is kept in the green.

Any ideas?

Try reducing the signal output from the Behringer and turning up the volume on the F1 Subwoofers. Does anything change?

ST

Thanks for the reply.

"Please say more about "the woofers sound stressed.""

They sound overdriven. They sound clean and clear up to a point (pretty loud, to be fair) then begin to sound overdriven. Keep in mind, there is no indication of limit or clip when this happens.

"I'm not familiar with the Behring XR18. Are you doing anything with the EQ to emphasize specific frequencies?"

It's an 18 channel digital mixer:

http://www.musictribe.com/Cate...Digital/XR18/p/P0BI8

No, there is no boosting of low frequencies, or much frequency boosting at all. Most of the EQing we've done on the channels is subtractive.

"Set the High Pass Filters (HPFs) at or above 40 Hz. The F1 Subwoofers won't use anything below that, so there's no need to have that content in the signal."

On our last gig (after I wrote this post) I moved the HPF for the bass up to 40hz. 

"Try reducing the signal output from the Behringer and turning up the volume on the F1 Subwoofers. Does anything change?"

The volume on the subwoofers is all the way up. The mixer's sub output is typically run at unity. The subs have never limited or clipped with this configuration, just exhibited the overdriven sound.

FWIW, we run the tops with the volume at around 80% and that seems to give a good balance of lows to highs for our musical needs. However, on occasion the tops to go into limit at which point we adjust the mix to keep them out of limit.

Hi PatJonCook,

PatJonCook posted:

Thanks for the reply.

"Please say more about "the woofers sound stressed.""

They sound overdriven. They sound clean and clear up to a point (pretty loud, to be fair) then begin to sound overdriven. Keep in mind, there is no indication of limit or clip when this happens.

"I'm not familiar with the Behringer XR18. Are you doing anything with the EQ to emphasize specific frequencies?"

It's an 18 channel digital mixer:

http://www.musictribe.com/Cate...Digital/XR18/p/P0BI8

Thanks for the link. I am aware of this mixer, but haven't used it extensively. 

No, there is no boosting of low frequencies, or much frequency boosting at all. Most of the EQing we've done on the channels is subtractive.

"Set the High Pass Filters (HPFs) at or above 40 Hz. The F1 Subwoofers won't use anything below that, so there's no need to have that content in the signal."

On our last gig (after I wrote this post) I moved the HPF for the bass up to 40hz. 

Great



"Try reducing the signal output from the Behringer and turning up the volume on the F1 Subwoofers. Does anything change?"

The volume on the subwoofers is all the way up. The mixer's sub output is typically run at unity. The subs have never limited or clipped with this configuration, just exhibited the overdriven sound.

Turn down the volume on the F1 Subwoofer a notch or two.

How does that sound?

Turn up the output on the Behringer XR18 sub mix if necessary without clipping the inputs or triggering the clip lights.



FWIW, we run the tops with the volume at around 80% and that seems to give a good balance of lows to highs for our musical needs. However, on occasion the tops to go into limit at which point we adjust the mix to keep them out of limit.

Do you have the F1 Model 812 units mounted directly on top of the F1 Subwoofers using the integrated stand?

How far apart are the F1 Subwoofers

What position are the Polarity switches?



ST

PS for future reference: X-Air Series mixers

Attachments

Photos (2)

The system is in storage at the moment but we will be using for a show this Saturday. Hopefully I will have time during soundcheck to integrate the suggestions below. I'll report back after.

"Turn down the volume on the F1 Subwoofer a notch or two."

I can do that, but I'm sure I will have to push the output of that bus of the mixer quite high to get the FoH output that we're looking for. I will try it, though.

"Do you have the F1 Model 812 units mounted directly on top of the F1 Subwoofers using the integrated stand?"

Yes.

"How far apart are the F1 Subwoofers"

Typically about 20', depending on the stage width.

"What position are the Polarity switches?"

Polarity is set to normal.

------------

The Behringer XLR outputs have a nominal output of +4dBu and max output of +16dBu. At what level input will the F1 sub inputs clip? I couldn't find that spec in the owner's manual.

 

Hi PatJonCook,

Thanks for providing all that detail.

PatJonCook posted:

The system is in storage at the moment but we will be using for a show this Saturday. Hopefully I will have time during soundcheck to integrate the suggestions below. I'll report back after.

"Turn down the volume on the F1 Subwoofer a notch or two."

I can do that, but I'm sure I will have to push the output of that bus of the mixer quite high to get the FoH output that we're looking for. I will try it, though.

Yes, you will have to turn up the output from the Behringer mixer. And there should be plenty of room to do that before clipping.



"Do you have the F1 Model 812 units mounted directly on top of the F1 Subwoofers using the integrated stand?"

Yes.

Great.



"How far apart are the F1 Subwoofers"

Typically about 20', depending on the stage width.

Again, great.



"What position are the Polarity switches?"

Polarity is set to normal.

All good.

I was looking for anything that might be diminishing the performance, and this all sounds fine. So turn down the volume on the F1 Subwoofer and make up for it by increasing the signal from the mixer.





------------

The Behringer XLR outputs have a nominal output of +4dBu and max output of +16dBu. At what level input will the F1 sub inputs clip? I couldn't find that spec in the owner's manual.

I looked at the output specifications of your mixer before suggesting that you turn down the volume on the F1 Subwoofer and turn up the output of the mixer. You have plenty of room to turn up the output of the mixer. Even if you see the red lights flickering, that's okay. If the lights turn solid red for longer than a second, then you're clipping the input.

I'll have to do some research to find the input level at which the F1 subwoofers will clip.  But you can find the practical limit with the mixer and the F1 Subwoofer very quickly.

Please let us know what you hear.

Thanks,

ST

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