Spun off from Loud enough for a Rock Band.

The portion in Bold is what spawned this discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Scooder:
Chuck...My 5 piece band uses 2 L1s for most of our shows, and for most venues, it's plenty loud enough. We play primarily rock/country music at bar/grill establishments with audiences between 100-300 people and the L1s (classics) have no problem putting out sufficient volume. Our guitars & bass go through their own amps, so we use the L1's primarily to drive the vocals and one acoustic guitar. We occasionally play with an electronic drum kit (when space is limited), and this too goes through the L1s (two B1s each)and produces sufficient volume. The e-drums sometimes push the system pretty hard though, when we've cranked it up (which we do on occasion). Generally speaking, audiences seem to want to hear the music without being blown out, and the bose system allows you to keep lower levels while dispersing the sound throughout the room (kinda sounds like a bose commercial), but the Bose folks are on to something with the L1. Go figure.

My band also has a traditional P/A setup (mixing console, amps, stacks, bass bins, etc.) that we use for larger venues, but we try to avoid this where possible. There's one large reception hall in our area that has a room about 85` X 260' where the audiences sometimes get in the 400-500 range that the two L1s just won't cover (volume wise), so we use the "traditional PA" at ths venue. There's usually a large gap between the band and the audience, and it's not just the dance floor.

We have our "regulars" in the audience that have heard us using both the L1 set up and the "traditional" set up. Virtually every time we play with the L1 set up, I hear at least one comment from an audience member about how clear the sound was. I never hear this when we use the traditional system, so we (and the audience) prefer the bose system.

It doesn't look like you would have a volume issue based on your audience estimates. The mobility factor of the bose system is huge. I can fit our entire system (with my guitars and amp) in my 4 door sedan, with room for lighting gear to boot. I occasionally use a vox pedalboard much like the Pod XT Live for smaller clubs (space issues) and the tone is almost as good as my guitar amp, so I'd think your guitarist could get by with the Pod XT Live and may be glad he/she is not having to lug around a heavy amp.

Playing with other bands might be a bit of a challenge as the Bose system takes some time to get used to, but it's worth the effort. A good compromise might be to go with 2 L1s and run them off a mixing console, that way the system would feel a little more natural to the opening acts, and you'd probably have enough inputs to minimize the set-up tasks in between bands.

The key to the L1s (as Ric & Cliff pointed out) is using decent mics (I'm assuming you're using a proper close micing technique). We have an arsenal of various vocal mics (SM 57&58s, Beta 58&87, EV 967s, and Audix OM-7s). We prefer the EV 967s, they're incredibly feedback resistant and sound good with little to no tweaking. The Audix OM-7 is a feedback-limiting monster (our drummer uses one sitting literally 1 foot in front of one of the L1s with no feedback issues), but is a very difficult mic to dial-in. (I'd love to have a tonematch preset for this mic from Bose).
Original Post
Hey scooder, don't want to derail this topic, but I'm very interested in the OM7, and you are the first one I've heard here that uses it.

Do you think you could do me a favor and test the OM7. Tell me how high you set the gain and how loud on the master and one of the channels you are able to go? And what is the tone quality like?
Ric:

Sure, I'll do some testing on the OM-7. I usually run the OM-7 through one of the channels on our T1 rather than into Ch1 or Ch2 of our classic L1s.

The OM-7 is a great mic if you're experiencing feedback issues as the pattern on the mic is extremely tight. As a result of where we set up our drums in relation to one of the L1s, we had issues with the drum vocal mic feeding back. Thus the OM-7 purchase. You have to be right on this mic to be heard. My only gripe about the mic is that getting that "magic tone" from it has eluded me so far. The OM-7 sounds really flat to me with no eq tweaks, and I'm still seraching for the right eqing that sounds good to me. I'd love to have an OM-7 preset from bose.

My band did a private event last night, and as the OM-7 tone was somewhat fresh on my mind, I spent some time dialing it in, and I'm getting closer to an acceptable tone. I had the mic preamp gain on the T1 set well past 3 o'clock, which is much hotter than we normally run our mics into the T1 (the others are usally 1 o'clock-ish). We were keeping the volume way down, so I figured that we wouldn't have any feedback issues (and we didn't). What I did learn thoguh, is that I've probably been running the trim on the OM-7 a little lean which is why the tone of the mic has been suffering.
quote:
Originally posted by Cliff-at-Bose:
Smooty: My band sets up, from the audience, far left guitar (Tom Yates) using a PodXTLive and OM5, I love the tones he's getting and he's a RealDeal electric guitar player for sure. next is a standard drum kit and OM5 (Tom Beier) and a 4-B1 L1, bass (Steinberger Synapse), 4-B1 L1 and OM5 (GW Jenkins) and Moi on piano (GEM Pro2) and organ (Nord) and OM5. We've been experimenting a lot with mics and this setup is the King. Also, another of our really big problems was bass note definition, like you get in the studio. I think our room roars a bit at 125 Hz, but thie Synapse really allows good definition. I think we're getting really close to our studio recordings in our live show. We'll start to play out in the spring. Maybe I will try to post some recordings we do at rehearsal.

We havn't done an OM7 yet and really must add it to the Audix collection. Cliff Castle at Audix confirms that it's a very close-up mic. But you should be able to get the sweet vocal out of it with the right preset.

Scooder, what presets did you try for the OM7? Did any come close for you? I really tried to make these give you a more natural vocal sound, more like your actual voice. I must say that the OM5 needed the least help of all the popular mics I worked on, and it really gets your vocal into the sires if you use it right.
Cliff:

I'm using the Beta 87A preset on the OM-7, It seems just a little brighter than the Beta 58A preset. The other presets just don't sound "natural" for this mic.

Per Ric's request, during our practice tonight, I really cranked up the levels on the OM-7 to see how high it would go before feedback. I had the mic preamp gain set at 3 o'clock, the channel volume at 2 o'clock and could get the master volume on the T1 up to 2 o'clock before a hint of feedback. (the R1 remote was set flat across the board). I didn't use any eqing on the OM-7, and the tone was decent, but still not as good as what the Ev 967s produce.

I did find that if I used the parametric eq on the T1 and removed between 1&2 db at the 4000 hz range (octave width at 1), I could get the channel and master levels higher (to almost 3 o'clock) before feedback was present.

The OM-7 was positioned about 30 inches from the L1 tower at about 4 o'clock (when veiwing the L1 from the top). It was way too loud, but I was impressed with the mics ability to reject feedback at these levels, particulalry that close to the L1. The EV 967s and Betas that we use would not be able to run that hot without feedback.
I don't have problems with feedback with m senniheiser 945 E, so far.

But, there are some clubs we are going to be playing in the future that are kind of large and usually have large noisy crowds. I know the L1's can go loud enough, if I have a mic that allows me to go very loud.

It sounds like the 945 e gets outperformed in feedback rejection by the OM7.

I looked at the specs of both mics on musiciansfriend, but I'm not very technical. Can someone tell me how the two compare spec wise?

I think this will do the trick.
Cliff:

Yeah, you have to be right on the OM-7 as it's pattern is so tight, that you lose a lot by not "kissing" the mic and being off dead-center even half and inch. It's not all or nothing, but you lose a lot of tone by being out of it's very small sweet spot. The tone is good but not great as it doesn't seem to be a very sensitive mic - which is probalby why its good at rejecting feedback. (I'm hoping you bose guys can get this mic somewhere near "great" with a preset crafted by someone who knows a little more about this than I do - maybe keeping in mind that the people using this mic use it for its utility in loud environments).

I do like the OM-7 when you're playing loud as you can still get a clean tone with discernable highs without any feedback (assuming you're in the sweet spot). It does seem to me like you have to drive this mic harder than a "normal" mic by singing louder, so that all the tone comes through. It takes some getting used to, but it excels at what it's designed to do (refject feedback).

I really like the OM-5 as well (tried one out but never played live with it), but went with the OM-7 so that we've always got the option of cranking things up if need be. I've noticed that almost every touring musician these days is using either an OM-5 or OM-6 (or at least it seems that way). Audix must be doing something right as they have a lot of big-name performers using their mics.


Ric:

We were using sennhesier 845s which we replaced with EV 967 and OM-7s. In my experience, both the 967s and OM-7s were far less susceptable to feedback and we've been really pleased with the change (even when we're not playing loud). The 967 is decent at rejecting feedback, but the OM-7 is the king of feedback rejection. The 967 is far and away my mic of choice for lead vocals, though. It's a much more forgiving mic.
I've been trying an Om7 for two weeks now against my Ev 767a and I think its going to work out a little better for feedback rejection in very tight quarters with the L1.

The Om7 has 10db less output than most mics so you really have to crank the trim (with the channel level at noon) to get the sig/overload light to flash. Working with the tone of the mic and my voice has been quite a task but in the end I can raise the volume of the L1 system a bit more than the EV767a without feedback.

I am also hoping the mic may have less "recycling sounds" other than my voice. This may help clean up the mix with bigger rooms needing more volume. One side effect of the Om7 is the handling noise is awful. Much more annoying than the Ev767 if you have a noisy mic stand or if you are actually holding the mic.

I'm going to try an EV967 next week and see if a mic with a higher output than the Ev767a will work better on a cramped stage.
quote:
I've been trying an Om7 for two weeks now against my Ev 767a and I think its going to work out a little better for feedback rejection in very tight quarters with the L1.


Interesting, I tried an OM5 against my wired EV 767 and really did not care for it much. Enough so, that I purchased 2 EV Wireless 767's as the RE-2 system. They are great, have a T1 preset and very little trouble with feedback issues. Their response and tone with the T1 preset is just wonderful.

We used to have a feed back problem, with my Wireless Nady UHF 10's, but we also were using some compression with the T1. I thought that the Compression feature of the T1 was nice, but we learned to "Eat the Mike" a little better and don't really need it.

I am surprised at how much volume we can get with the EV 767's, especially at an outdoor gig, we stand off to the side a bit and really crank.
For the average situation where I'm 5-6 ft in front of the L1 I don't have problems with the EV767a.

But in the worst of situations where we're cramped up against a wall, perhaps with sidewalls on either side of us, like a long narrow room, and we're still expected to play over a noisy bar crowd I have problems with feedback.

We use classic L1's without the T1. Finding the best gain to feedback mic would help under this worst case scenario. Outside without boundries I don't have the reflections and thus no feedback problems.
The Om7 seems to have better gain to feedback over the EV767a although the tone isn't quite right for my voice. I'll use the mic that works best for the situation.
I've been working with an EV967 this week comparing it to my EV767a and Audix OM7 for feedback rejection in close quarters and overall tone with my voice. Its been an interesting battle.

I started with the remote channel levels set at noon and then set the trim on each channel to matchup the different mics.
I used the EV767a with Bose preset #10 and the Eq set flat on the remote.
I used the EV967 with the rolloff switch engaged, with Bose preset #11 and the Eq set flat on the remote.
Since we don't have a Bose preset for the Audix OM7 yet, I tried to match the tone of the Audix OM7 to the EV967 and settled on preset #13 with the HIGH control on the remote set to -4db.

The EV767a has a presence peak around
4-6k and this is where I have feedback problems. The EV967 has a flat presence band from around 4.5k to 10k. The EV967 did much better than the EV767a at rejecting feedback. This allowed for quite abit more volume before feedback arose again at around 4-6k. In cramped situations this could help getting volume without feedback.

I then moved on to the OM7. The OM7 has a dip in response at 4-6k and a big presence bump around 8-11k. This bump is where I had feedback with this mic.
The OM7 just barely beatout the EV967 at rejecting feedback but due to tonal differance between the mics I think the EV967 would cut through a mix better.

Now as to the tone of the mics....
I think the EV767a is a great sounding mic with low handling noise and has a good overall tone for many styles but it isn't quite what I've been looking for.
The OM7 is an odd sounding mic that took the right preset to make it work with my voice. I'm hoping a new Bose preset would make it work better. The handling noise from this mic is awful.
The Ev967 response drops off sharply above 10k and doesn't have that "airy sound" that both the EV767a and OM7 have. But it does seem to have a more "in your face" sound. The handling noise is also low.

I'm currently in a "new country" band playing radio hits and Nashville seems to have a particular vocal EQ style in alot of these songs. Like a warm upper midrange bump with a rolloff below 150hz and just a dash of sizzle on top. This is similiar to the sound I get with the EV967. It cuts through a mix very well and has excellent feedback rejection. Its not as pretty sounding as the EV767a but I'll try this mic till the OM7 preset comes out and then we'll see..........
quote:
Originally posted by grecon:
. Its not as pretty sounding as the EV767a but I'll try this mic till the OM7 preset comes out and then we'll see..........


Nice information on the mikes. I had tried an OM-5, but it really does not seem to work well for my voice and style.
Myself being a bit of a lounge lizard, that explains why the EV767a is my favorite.
The wireless RE-2 really feels good and comfortable. I am usually off to the side of my L1 a bit, so I have not had any feedback issues, except when I was using too much compression.
Grecon:

Thanks for the info on the mics. Your analysis (with specs included) sort of confirmed what my ears had been telling me with our setup and experience with OM-7s and 967s.

During our gig this weekend, I used one of our OM-7s as I was positioned about 3 feet directly in front of the L1's and it worked great. We were pushing our L1s to their limits (some minor limiting/clipping occasionally) as the room was packed. I used the parametric eq on our T1 to roll back the 4-6K frequency on the OM-7(which is usually where our feeback "hits") and didn't hear any squeal from it at all. The OM-7 actually sounded fairly good (but not great) tone-wise as well. (We did however, have a fair amount of feedback from the Beta 58A that our bass player likes to use. I just acquired a new 967 this week to take care of that issue). The stage at this particular venue is fairly small and we're backed into a corner (back wall behind us and a long wall to one side), so it's not an ideal set up, and is very similar to those that you refer to.

A couple of comments:

While the Bose guys are working on a preset for the OM-7, I seem to remember reading somewhere on this board that Bose is no longer going to issue the presets for the L1 classic. Rather the new tonematch presets will be available for the T1 only. If I recall correctly from our PM exchange, you're using L1 classics with no T1.

I'm planning on removing our T1 from our setup for our next few gigs as we need a bit more mixing flexibility than the T1 provides (need more inputs now), so I'd like to have the OM-7 preset available for download into the L1 Classics. Maybe the Bose folks will chime in an confirm the future plans for preset realeases (and maybe make the OM-7 preset available for the L1 Classics, not just the T1). While the preset dowload process can be a little tricky for the L1, I'd still like to have an OM-7 preset available when we're not running the T1.

And not to derail the topic, but since you're running a similar set up, and mentioned some issues getting suffient low end when the volumes creep up, I was wondering if you've worked out a solution to the issue. We're trying to get a little more thump in our sound, so looking at the best solutions for getting more low end into our mix. We went to GC today to audition powered subs today, but I wasn't impressed with any of the ones we heard (Mackie, QSC, JBL). Let me know if you've found a workable solution via the PM thread we had going.
I just bought my second L1M2 with dual B1's and T1
My last T1 never got a preset for the OM7, which in my opinion is the best live performance mic on the planet...

I always used the OM5 preset and I remember it took forever to dial it in to what I wanted.
Now I am having just as much trouble as before dialing it in, and the OM6 isnt helping.

I was really hoping that Bose would have made a OM7 preset by now.

However I am extremely excited to have another L1M2 :-)
Hey ST, good to see you :-)
I sold my last L1, when I started my old band, just getting around to replacing it.
I tried both the VX5 and 10, seems even farther off...I think its just going to take a bunch of tweaking, seems like last time I had to do the same thing.
I gotta say tho, that OM7 is a dream!

Keen OM7 user here for 4 years. Still disappointed that there still no OM7 preset. They have presets for the Audix OM2, OM3, OM5, OM6 & VX10 but not for the mic that best deals with L1 feedback issues the best (OM7)? I currently use the Shure Beta 87A preset & tweak from there.

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