so, i recently picked up the shure ut24 sm58 beta wireless handheld mic setup. the mic stays on the mic stand thorughout my entire gig, but i just wanted one less cord to have to run. now, i heard that the sm58 beta was a great mic, and that was proven to be true saturday night. it picked up every little nuance of my voice. i heard my voice in a way i never have before. just completely crystal clear. now, that's all fine and go0d, but i had heard that the beta mic was relatively feedback resistant, but i wasn't bankin' on the miracle that happened saturday night. i set up for the gig, using the new mic for the first time. to test it's capabilities in close quarters, i cranked the mic channel to about the volume that i normally use at a show, and started walking closer and closer to the mic. let me tell you, i had the mic less than three inches from the bose L1, with not so much as a hint of feedback! it was absolutely the most amazing thing ever. those of you lo0king to solve any feedback issues once and for all, lo0k no further than the shure sm58 beta version mic! i bought the complete wireless system new on ebay for $312 shipped (about $1oo± less than retail). you can find the wired version of the sm58 beta mic itself for less than $2oo, sometimes as low as $15o depending on where you lo0k. just wanted to throw that option out there. didn't know if anyone had ever tried out this mic. i have used the standard sm58s for years now, i just never knew it got this much better in roughly the same price range.

bose pas + shure sm58 beta = *angels singing*
Original Post
Hey Kevin,

Thanks for posting this! 'Glad to hear of your success with the Beta 58A. That's my mic of choice, too. Were you using the Beta 58A Preset?

You described exctly the way that we demo the system's feedback resistance! Folks should know that feedback is possible, even with this great combination, but you almost have to try to make it squeal by having the trim and volume controls cranked way up...

FWIW, I and many others on the forum have had equally great results in terms of feedback resistance (gain before feedback) with the Audix OM5 and the Sennheiser e855. These are all different sounding mics. I mention this because not every voice sounds the same and it's good to have options...

P.S. My 1-year-old just noticed the occasional visitor in yor avatar! Cool stuff...
Definitely worth trying that preset, but you never know - you might just find that you like the sound of Preset 00 (flat) better! Some folks (Oldghm comes to mind) have had great success with trying lots of different presets until they find the one that works best for their voice through their mic...

The presets are essentially eq curves that the Ears-at-Bose, knowing what they know (on paper and with their ears) about a particular mic or instrument, apply to optimize that mic or instrument for use with the Bose system, along with a few other utility curves...

Give 'em a whirl and please let us know what you find...
A Beta 58A is my mic of choice, as well. I find that it matches my voice very well, more so than even a normal 58, or my prior favorite, an EV N/D757.

I usually use the Beta 58 preset (03 in the Rev 1 presets) and find that it does match the mic very well. Other members in the band use a variety of mics, and we tend to have lots of feedback issues with them, particularly the 757 and the 58, given the small stages and lack of physical space in which we typically operate. But, generally, my Beta 58 is fairly feedback resistant.
I need some help with dealing with the feedback during live performances. I have 6 Bose Cylindrical Radiator Towers (complete w/2 Bass Modules each), 10 Shure Beta 58 (corded) microphones, 4 Shure WH 30 SLX Wireless Head Sets, and 2 Shure Beta 87c wireless handheld microphones in which makes up my complete system. I have encountered many occations that I had to drop the volume output levels way down to eliminate the feedback. The volumes are beginning to become insufficient for the audience to hear well. I have ajusted the remote control settings pretty low such as the "highs" as well as the "mid" and "Bass". I even turned all of those three "off" or "way in the negative" area and still encountered feedback when trying to turn up the volume. I even turned the trim level down to about 6 on the bottom of the power stand and still encounter feedback when the musicians are at least 7 feet away from the towers. I did notice that the musicians must be more than 7 feet away from the towers for me to be able to turn the volume higher without feedback. Is their any suggestions for me because I have been looked up to have one of the finest proffessional P.A. system in Hawaii because of this new technology from Bose, however am loosing the image quickly because of the feedback issues. It is also giving Bose a weak name with this different technology in Hawaii because musicians are starting to like the old system better because of the feedback problems. I have been to the Bose Store in Hawaii many times on this issue and was told many things to in which did not solve the problem. I am now reaching out to any of you who may have some suggestions for me. Not many have this Bose system in Hawaii and I am one of the few to have this large amount of this system of the Bose P.A. System. Can someone either e-mail me something at Bosehawaii@hotmail.com or on this message board thing. This is getting to the point that I may eliminate further use of this system because it is taking a tole on all the Hawaii musician who use it......Thanks....DJ Jake....
DJJake

You will need to give a bit more precise information in order to recieve more precise suggestions.

Are you using the systems with the same group all the time or different ensembles?

Are you setting gain structure as neccessary for each application or setting all mics the same?

Are you micing vocals? Instruments? Both? What and how many of each?

Are you leaving unused mics on or turned up?

Answers to these questions, and more info on your usual setup might help those with more experience share what they have learned with you.

Get back to us, someone here can help.

Oldghm
I use this system with many different groups, sometimes the same group, sometimes other groups. Some groups take 2 mics, and some use 5 mics. I never leave an open mic on!!!!! I still get feedback!! I use the most expensive mic's shure has for "superior gain" before feedback, and I still get feedback from the towers. I also set gain structure as neccessary for each application and still get feedback!! I dont know what it means about "micing" vocals and instruments???? Please explain this????? Can sombody answer these questions?????? and please keep asking more questions so I can continue to answer them in hopes of solving this problem. I love "Bose" so much that I dont want to be forced to discontinue use of this systm and loose so much money down the drain............Please help!!!!!!! DJ Jake!!!!!!!!
DJ Jake,

Do you have any pictures you could post so we can get an idea how you are using your systems?

Let's get really specific and talk about
"Some groups take 2 mics"

Exactly what are the people doing; singing or playing instruments? Maybe you could describe one person at a time.

Also, could you tell us about where you are using the systems. Nightclub, outdoors, or ...

What kind of music?
Sometimes just because of the small stage or venue size, I have to sing very near the L1, and tend to get feedback at higher levels using
an Audix OM5....I am going to dig out my
Behringer Shark feedback eliminator and learn how to use it...used it once with my old system
and it was effective, and ...cheap..
DJ Jake,

It would appear from your response that the setup is ever changing, depending on your client. Which suggests that the users don't have any time to adjust to this new way of working with sound.

The question about micing vocals or instruments was an effort to determine possible problem areas. Example..... Are you more likely to have a problem with a singer, or an acoustic guitar?

Or......A trumpet or sax player?

Or a singer with an acoustic instrument? guitar, fiddle, mandolin???? Any particular traditional Hawaiian instruments?

A piano?

Are you controlling all remotes?

Are you using a mixer in the setup?

Are adjustments being made from the stage area?

If you are not on the stage, where are you? Are you on the same level as the L1 speaker array?

Do you have problems when using only one or two PAS?

I would suggest some practice/rehearsal time with one or two units to try to figure what it is that triggers the feedback, and then work on remedies to correct it. Do this at a time and in a place where there is no pressure to get it right immeadiately, so you can study, take notes or whatever it takes to make the cure a permanent part of your PAS knowledge.

There are many individuals, duos, and groups large and small using this technology without feedback problems, so whatever is the culprit in your case, it is correctable.

It has been my experience that controlling feedback with the PAS is not that much different than with other systems, and Personally I have had no feedback issues at all.

Begin with gain staging, mic placement and attitude (angle), encourage users to work close to the mic (within 1 inch).

When everything else is done right and you still have feedback, adjust the gain down a little, (on the PS1) and turn the volume up a little (on the remote channel)

Step by step setup, trouble shooting and a little patience will go a long way toward solving your problems.

Please get back to us with more detailed info.

Hope this helps, Oldghm
I will scan some pictures and post in on the next message. The people are doing both, singing and playing instruments. Each musician has one tower to themselves. One mic and one instrument pluged in channel 1 and channel 2. I am using my system indoors at times but rarely and mostely outdoors for the majority part. I have problems with both the singer and the acoustic instruments. Yes I am controlling all remotes and I am not using any mixers in the setup. Adjustments are being made from the stage area. Im not on stage, im in the audience in which is in the same level as the array. Still have problems with only using 1 or 2 arrays. I noticed the musicians have to be extreemely far away from the towers to hear no feedback. Way beyond where their instrument wires can reach like 10 feet or so. I adjusted the gain lower on the trim to 5 and I didnt have enough volume. When I adjusted the trim, I adjusted to remote up and still feedback!!! Is their a number that I can call u directly so I can solve this once and for all? or if not we can still use this method............jake...
I am speaking with DJ Jake privately, but have also asked him to keep posting questions here, because others may pick up on something that I don't, and offer solutions/ideas that I don't recognize.

ST, if you can find the time would you mind posting some links to past threads that are relevant to setup and feedback control???

Thanks, Oldghm
Oldghm and DJ Jake

Here are some notes about feedback. Rather than sending you following links, I've just put things that seemed relevant below.


From the Bose Support Site
My vocal microphone keeps encountering feedback. Is there anything I can do to stop it?

  • Orient the microphone so that it is not pointing directly at your Cylindrical Radiator™ loudspeaker. It’s best when your system is not directly behind you- give greater than 5 feet distance between you and your system.
  • Try using a “close-miking” technique to increase the gain at the microphone and to reduce unwanted stage sound.
  • Use the HIGH tone control knob for the microphone channel carefully. Feedback could occur when this is set too high.
  • Upgrade your power stand to newer software that offer a high gain preset. see: Software Upgrading (This covers firmware update and Version 2.0 Presets)
  • If using a vocal effects processor, make sure that it is not contributing to the feedback problem.
  • If stand -mounting a directional microphone, tilt the microphone up ten or twenty degrees off the horizon so that it is less sensitive to direct sound from the speakers.
  • Try a different microphone such as a directional mic. Hypercardioid microphones work well with the system.



Here's a sketch of setting up a microphone on stand.


Other general notes:
  • All players should be playing / singing through the Bose System closest to them
  • Every doubling of distance between the microphone and the singer reduces gain-before-feedback by a factor of 4. The difference between 1/2 inch and an inch can be significant.
  • Wherever possible "acoustic" instruments should use pickups instead of microphones.
    This is important because many players find it a struggle to keep a consistant and close distance between the microphone and their instrument. Also, an instrument can be a source of feedback as it resonates with the amplified sound.
  • Another (low prority) design guide-line could be to keep open mics as far apart as possible. Neighboring systems with open mics can mututally decrease gain-before-feedback


Here are more notes from shure.com
Handling the Microphone
Seems like a pretty natural thing, doesn't it? But how your vocalists handle the mic has a major effect on the resulting sound. It may look great, but your tech team won't get the sound they want when your soloist holds a microphone an arm's length from her mouth.

Why?

The first reason is the inverse square law. If you hold your mic a half-inch from your lips it receives a given amount of sound energy from your voice. Move it twice as far-one inch-and it receives one-fourth as much energy. That extra half -inch takes away three-quarters of the efficiency of your sound system. While good mic technique involves "working" the microphone, singers that fully extend their arms when reaching for that climax, are usually doing it for dramatic effect. Small changes in distance from the mouth can result in very dramatic changes in sound level.

Second: When you move the mic away from your lips, you must turn up the microphone level at the mixer to be heard, and more unwanted sound enters the mic. When sound from a monitor speaker enters the mic, it instantly becomes the earsplitting screech we know as feedback. Keeping the mic close to your mouth minimizes feedback.

See the whole article: Miking Live Vocals


edit - updated link to newer version of the Bose FAQ about Feedback

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